Doug Burgum Confirmation Hearing

Sen. Lee (00:00):

Everything from gas to groceries, from housing to healthcare, to restrictive land use policies that tend to stifle growth generally. The challenges facing American families are mounting and they're staggering. This past November, voters decided to send a clear message. They demanded bold leaders willing to break from the status quo and take a fresh approach, one less likely to result in this awful pattern of inflation in which we found ourselves over the last four years. Your nomination has garnered remarkable support from tribes, from more organizations, businesses, and people of all stripes and backgrounds, particularly those who were most uniquely and directly affected by the US Department of the Interior and its policies. The dozens of letters of support nationwide further underscore your reputation as a leader, one who's committed to change, committed to fostering relationships, and they reflect a pretty widespread confidence in your vision and in your readiness to lead this organization.

(01:08)
The Department of the Interior, of course, plays a central role in addressing many of these challenges, particularly in states like Utah, my state, where federal land management shapes nearly every aspect of our day-to-day life because, well, the federal government owns two-thirds of the land, about 67% in my state. And there are other members of this committee who represent other public land states who understand the relationship between the department you've been called to lead and their day-to-day lives. Nearly one-fifth of the land in the United States is under the jurisdiction of the US Department of the Interior, in my state it's much higher than that of course, and this influences everything from energy development to public land access, tribal relations, and wildlife management. In Utah, where the federal government controls more than two-thirds of the land, the impact of these policies are profound. The decisions made in Washington Ripple through our economy and our communities in ways that are unmistakable and not always positive.

(02:15)
Unfortunately, these policies have taken a troubling turn during the Biden administration. Expanding national monuments like Bears Ears and Grand Staircase without meaningful input from local communities has jeopardized access and harmed the locals who call these places home. The public lands rule and restrictive management plans have placed unnecessary and often insurmountable barriers in the way of responsible resource development and land access. On his first day in office, president Biden issued a moratorium on oil and gas leasing, severely damaging our energy security and locking away resources we needed to power our homes and our economy. Now over time, these decisions have revealed a pattern of disregard for the multiple-use mandate that federal land management is supposed to uphold and to which it's been subject for nearly 50 years. The consequences of these policies extend of course, far beyond Utah. As wildfires devastate California, it's clear that mismanagement of public lands has consequences that often reach far beyond rural areas.

(03:28)
Federal agencies must reevaluate their approach to wildfire prevention, prioritizing forest management strategies that mitigate the risk of catastrophic blazes. Utah and other Western states know too well the devastation that these fires cause, and addressing this crisis must be a very key priority for the department. Reversing course will of course require bold leadership and a willingness to embrace innovative solutions. The Department of the Interior must take a hard look at the leasing restrictions of the last few years, which have steered development toward low potential areas while blocking access to high-value resources like critical minerals. These are the building blocks of our economy and our national defense, and we can't afford to let bureaucratic delays jeopardize our future. Housing shortages across the West present another daunting challenge that we have to face. By working with state and local governments to identify underutilized federal lands, the department could finally meaningfully alleviate the housing crisis in places like Utah where the demand for affordable homes far exceeds supply. Bills like My Houses Act would provide a long-term strategy and a strong framework for such partnerships, showing that federal land policy can drive solutions rather than creating obstacles.

(04:58)
The Colorado River, a lifeline for millions across the west, faces growing threats. Effective communication and support from the Department of the Interior, as states negotiate the river's future, will be critical to safeguarding that vital resource. Our national parks also require renewed attention. These iconic landscapes are a source of pride and a major economic driver for the gateway communities surrounding them. According to some polls, they're one of the few features of the federal government that people actually like, so we've got to take care of them. The department must work to balance accessibility with conservation, ensuring that visitors can enjoy these treasures without compromising the future. This will require stronger partnerships with local stakeholders to address infrastructure needs and manage visitor impacts. On the regulatory front, the misuse of the Endangered Species Act has caused significant harm by halting development projects and undermining state authority. While the ESA is an essential tool for protecting imperiled species, it must be applied judiciously and in coordination with local governments to avoid unnecessary conflict.

(06:11)
Governor Burgum, your track record uniquely positions you in particular to lead the Department of the Interior during this challenging time. Your vision and your leadership will be instrumental to restoring balance to federal policies and ensuring that public lands are managed with accountability and with care. Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these challenges and charting a new course that reflects the principles of federalism and respect for local communities. Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these challenges and charting a new course, and I invite you to visit Utah as soon as you have the chance to see firsthand the opportunities and the challenges we face. The hearing that we're having today marks the beginning of an essential conversation about the future of the Department of the Interior, and I look forward to hearing your perspective and exploring ways that we can work together to address these pressing issues. Thanks again for your willingness to serve, and I really look forward to our discussions today. I'm going to turn the time over now to our ranking member, Senator Martin Heinrich from New Mexico.

Sen. Heinrich (07:19):

Thank you Chairman, and Governor Burgum, welcome to the Energy and Natural Resources Committee. We had a great conversation last week, I am very much looking forward to hearing your answers to the questions today. And I too want to begin by acknowledging the horrific wildfires in California over the last couple of weeks. And having spoken to many of my members on the dais, I know you're going to get some questions about that, and in particular, about firefighters and how we make sure that they're supported. The Department of Interior has responsibility for an incredibly broad array of issues, from conserving the places that Americans love to spend time with their families, to protecting and recovering our most iconic wildlife species, to delivering water to cities and farms across the west, and fulfilling our nation's trust responsibilities to tribal nations. Pretty much any job that involves responsibilities that range from elementary school students and healthcare to bison is a pretty big job.

(08:31)
Public lands are, they're where we go to camp and hike and hunt and fish and spend time with our families. They're where our veterans go to seek the peace and solitude that their service to our country could not always provide. And while there are some who argue that the very existence of public lands, places like Yosemite or the Bitterroot National Forest, are unconstitutional, but most Americans know that the idea of lands that belong to everyone, no matter where they live or who their parents are or how thick or thin their wallet is, one of the most democratic ideas from our nation. I hope you'll join me in keeping public lands in public hands. And the Interior Department is also the leader in meeting our nation's trust responsibility to tribal nations and upholding the treaty commitments that we as a nation made to tribes and their members.

(09:27)
As a nation, as we discussed in my office, we routinely fall short of meeting those commitments. We can and we must do better. As a relentless pace of climate change brings bigger floods, hotter summers, higher winds, as we've seen in California, and diminished snowpack, which we are experiencing in New Mexico, it's also driving the long-term aridification of the Western United States. Over the next 50 years, it's expected that New Mexico will have 25% less water than we have had historically. And we're not alone in that. The Colorado River, which provides drinking water for 40 million people, irrigates billions of dollars worth of crops, provides essential habitat for fish and wildlife, and will likely never return to those early 20th century flows that we used to be able to expect. Through the Bureau of Reclamation, the Department of the Interior must play an active role in helping the west transition to that new water reality.

(10:33)
And as you know, the Interior Department is also an energy department. As we make the transition to a cleaner energy economy, the land and water managed by the department will play an indispensable role in producing the energy that we need as well as facilitating the ability to move that energy around the country. From geothermal and hydrogen to solar and wind, the department's work is at the center of our energy future. Governor, I very much look forward to hearing your plans on all of these topics and more, and I think we'll have some very active questions from all of our members today.

Sen. Lee (11:11):

Thank you, Senator Heinrich. We're now going to hear introductions from the North Dakota delegation. First we'll hear from Senator Hoeven and then a moment from Senator Kramer.

Sen. Hoeven (11:22):

Thank you Chairman Lee, and also ranking member Heinrich. Appreciate that, and thanks for holding this hearing today. Doug, governor, welcome to you, and Catherine, welcome to you, and Doug, to your whole team. It's great to see you guys, thanks for your just incredible service on behalf of North Dakota, and it really is an honor today to introduce you to our Energy and Natural Resources Committee. Senator Kramer, welcome to you as well, good to have you here. I'm not sure where to start, I've known Doug for more than 30 years and we've been working in various capacities for the duration, and as well as just being a very good friend, both Doug and Catherine to myself and my wife, Mikey. So on behalf of her as well, greetings, and thanks for your willingness to serve.

(12:13)
Of course, grew up in Arthur, North Dakota, and then went to school at NDSU State University, home of the bison, the mighty bison. And then went to a lesser-known school, Stanford I think, for an MBA, right? But after that, went to work for McKenzie Consulting. My staff wrote up this beautiful introduction, but I think I'm just going to talk a little bit about our shared time together and friendship. Came back, and actually there was this nascent software company, Great Plains Software, and along with some of his relatives mortgaged a family farm and bought it on a flyer, and went to work and started hiring these kids, young people from across North Dakota, to develop this software company. And I went to his office, I don't know, a long time ago, over 30 years ago, and he was in there, he was just putting these eight by eight, I guess, floppy disks into sleeves, and then he put them into boxes and then putting them into larger boxes and they were shipping.

(13:26)
And I said, "Doug, what is this? What are you doing?" Well, I then learned all about, if you know Doug, you know what I mean, it's true, all about PC software. And he built that company up, sold it, or went public in 1997 with it. Sold it to Microsoft in 2001, and that became Microsoft Business Solutions. And so Microsoft Business Solutions today, it had its genesis in Great Plains Software. Doug ran Microsoft Business Solutions for a number of years, kept it there in Fargo. It was the largest location for Microsoft outside of Bellevue, Washington, and had, I don't know, 2000 or more North Dakotans working for them from across the state. Left that after a while, started some more companies, went into philanthropy, including some really great things for our North Dakota State University and many other things. Revitalized in many respects downtown Fargo with his real estate development.

(14:29)
In 1997 when I was governor, I gave him the Theodore Roosevelt Rough Rider Award, which is our highest award, and I can remember him looking at me at the time and going, "Gee, John, I hope I have not done accomplishing things." And obviously you weren't, Doug. Ran for governor in 2016, won. Ran again in '20 and won overwhelmingly, mostly because of Catherine we think, but won by a big majority. Did a great job as governor. Ran for president, and actually was the first of the presidential candidates when he left the race to endorse President Trump. And President Trump right from the get-go, and Kevin will tell you the same thing, when we talked to him about Doug, he was really excited about Doug from the jump. And I'm thinking, well, the guy ran against you, really? But he never had anything but great things to say about Doug and of course, Catherine, which we all understand.

(15:26)
But he endorsed President Trump, and what Trump saw was that somebody who truly understands energy, and the Trump administration has such a big energy agenda that he knew this was the guy to lead it. So it's not just about leading the Department of Interior as secretary, but leading the National Energy Council, and that's what President Trump has really seen in him. But that being said, because there's a lot of things that Interior touches, this is a guy that loves the outdoors. He's got a ranch, he loves to be outside riding horses, rounding up cattle, he loves to hunt. So he loves the outdoors. He loves the national park system, he's a historian.

(16:06)
I mean, Angus King, he'd even challenge you for trivial knowledge of history, and important knowledge of history too, but I mean, just any detail. Head-to-head, you two guys go in detail, it'd be fun to listen to for a while. And so he loves the outdoors, he loves the park system and talked to folks that he's worked with in Indian country. We have five reservations and we have a lot more tribes than that, but every single tribe has endorsed him. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these letters be introduced into the record

Sen. Lee (16:41):

Without objection.

Sen. Hoeven (16:42):

And more than 180 different tribes across the country have endorsed him too. That says something. That says something about a guy who's willing to sit down and talk to folks. This is a guy that fits this job. He really does, he covers all the bases. And so I hope everybody on this committee will take time and visit with him and understand him where he is coming from, and understand that he will take time to understand your issues and work with you, because I think you'll find this is the right man, the right fit for this job. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sen. Lee (17:20):

Senator Cramer.

Sen. Cramer (17:21):

Thank you Chairman Lee and ranking member Heinrich, and congratulations to both of you on your leadership of this important committee. It was great to listen to John, and by the way, let me just start out by doing what I always do best, and that is agree with John Hoeven. It's worked very well for me in my career. What struck me right away as he starts talking like a governor, as I look around the room and he brings up Angus, I think, well, I'm in a former governor's club for crying out loud. You guys, you're going to have a lot of great things to talk about.

(17:59)
There's so much to be said and John has done it very, very well, so I'm just going to highlight a couple of things. And to John's point about President Trump's confidence in Doug Burgum, he called me a lot, the president. He even called me when Doug was his opponent and said, "I like that Doug Burgum guy a lot." And he said, "He's just so smart and he's so good and he's got a big brain and he understands everything." And I said, "He does, he does, and he'll be very, very valuable to you in your service. And I think as a consumer, as Governor Burgum and First Lady Catherine are consumers of these incredible federal assets of ours, are great rich properties, as recreators understanding the value that it brings to agriculture, that they bring to responsible extraction of minerals, I think one of the things that oftentimes maybe doesn't get talked about with Governor Burgum is he's not just an oil man from an oil and gas producing state. He is first and foremost the conservationist, he is from the land of Roosevelt, and he absolutely relentlessly carried the ball to ensure that the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library gets built and that it gets built in Medora, North Dakota, at the gateway to Theodore Roosevelt National Park, so that it could become the symbol of responsible extraction of minerals, responsible production of federal assets in a way that both exercises great care for the land and the water and the air, as well as great economic opportunity for the people that own these assets. That's a remarkable balance that he brings to this. And so it's such a great honor for me to be able to be here with him to talk about the multiple uses of our federal assets in ways that recognize their value in so many ways.

(19:57)
And I'll just wrap up with this because John just did such a great job, but I want to read one short paragraph from one of the letters from one of our tribes, and I know that many tribes throughout the country have written letters. Over my years of public service in North Dakota and working hard at relationships with tribal leaders and recognizing government to government relationships, the thing that has impressed me the most perhaps about Doug Burgum as a governor was the respect that he always showed for them, and that has been reciprocated because he did the hard thing, he earned a trust that had been lost, not by former governors so much as just history, as history. It's hard work to do that. And so I'm just going to close, Mr. Chairman. I just want to read a paragraph from Chairwoman Janet Elkire from Standing Rock Sioux Tribe in North and South Dakota.

(21:11)
Probably one of the bit more challenging relationships in recent years has been over the Dakota Access Pipeline and that particular tribe, which with different leadership, could have divided people in a big way. But even through that, through all of that, he earned their support. And I'm just going to read this short paragraph and then I'll end with that, with my thanks to you for allowing me this opportunity, and my thanks to you, Doug, for allowing me this blessing. Governor Burgum understands the Native American dynamic, which if you're non-native, can be difficult to maneuver. But he does it well. He understands the importance of honoring traditional values and culture, promoting family first, remembering who we are and where we came from, the struggles we endure, and community wellness. And so it's just my honor to be able to introduce him today and look forward to a successful confirmation and working together. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sen. Lee (22:19):

Thank you, Senator Kramer, and also Senator Hoeven. Governor Burgum, the rules of the committee require that at any hearing to confirm a presidential nomination, the testimony of the nominee shall be under oath. Accordingly, if you'll please stand and raise your right hand, I'll administer the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give to the senate committee on energy and natural resources shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Gov. Doug Burgum (22:41):

I do.

Sen. Lee (22:42):

Thank you. Now, before I have you begin your opening statement, I'll ask three questions that are addressed to each nominee who comes before the committee. First, will you be available to appear before this committee and other congressional committees to represent departmental positions and respond to issues of concern to the Congress?

Gov. Doug Burgum (23:05):

Yes.

Sen. Lee (23:06):

Are you aware of any personal holdings, investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of interest or create the appearance of such a conflict should you be confirmed and assume the office to which you've been nominated by the president?

Gov. Doug Burgum (23:19):

No.

Sen. Lee (23:22):

And are you involved or do you have any assets that are held in a blind trust?

Gov. Doug Burgum (23:31):

No, I do not.

Sen. Lee (23:33):

I'll invite you now to introduce your family before you give your opening statement.

Gov. Doug Burgum (23:40):

Well, good morning and thank you, Senator Lee. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. Grateful to have the opportunity, thank you for your leadership on this committee. And I do want to begin with gratitude, as I always do, with a special thank you to my friends, Senator Hoeven, Senator Kramer, not just for their kind words this morning, but their incredible service to the country and to North Dakota over their lifetimes. And Senator Lee, as you acknowledged, I'm deeply grateful for the support of all of my friends, my family, especially our three kids, and my amazing and courageous former First Lady and my wife, Catherine Burgum, who's joining me here today. It's certainly an honor to have been nominated by President Trump to serve as the 55th Secretary of the Interior. As Senator Hoeven said, I grew up in Arthur, North Dakota, this is a tiny town of about 400 people. We didn't even have paved streets when I grew up, it was all gravel. And it was 400 if you counted everybody that was also staying in the Good Samaritan home, that's how we got to 400.

(24:40)
My father was World War II Navy officer who served in the Pacific. My dad died when I was a freshman in high school, and my mom went back to work in higher education. I was blessed to learn from them about service, about leadership, about sacrifice, and certainly from both of them about a love of the outdoors. Growing up, I worked in our family's grain elevator. Every job I had all the way through junior high through the end of college was one that required showering at the end of the day, not the beginning of the day. And I even worked my way through undergrad at North Dakota State as a chimney sweep which, I loved that job because it was one that you could move up fast and always stay in the black. I thought it was the perfect career.

(25:26)
After grad school, as John mentioned, I had an opportunity to go directly from undergrad to Stanford for an MBA, and then later I was working in Chicago, I saw my first Apple II computer. And that was the moment literally where I said, I need to get into the software business. I'd inherited 160 acres of farm ground from my dad, and I literally bet the farm on that tiny software startup called Great Plains. With a dream and hardworking team members, we grew to a global public company with over 2000 team members serving 140,000 businesses in over 100 countries around the world. I spent my entire professional career in the private sector until I was elected governor in 2016, and for the last eight years I've been blessed with the privilege of serving the citizens of the great state of North Dakota. My time as governor has been a valuable preparation for the opportunity and the privilege to potentially serve as the role of Secretary of Interior as our state and my duty specifically as governor there put me in contact with many of the bureaus inside the department.

(26:29)
In North Dakota, we share geography with five sovereign tribal nations. State and tribal relationships in North Dakota have sometimes been challenged, but the current partnership is historically strong because we prioritize tribal engagement through mutual respect, open communication, collaboration, and a sincere willingness to listen. I'm grateful for the many tribal nations, both in and outside North Dakota, for expressing their support for my nomination. As governor of North Dakota, I also served as chairman of the North Dakota Land Board, which manages our state's land and minerals with the goal of yielding and return for a state endowment fund that significantly funds public education. I chaired the North Dakota Industrial Commission which oversees 16 agencies that are related to a variety of things, including energy research, the state's geologic resources, energy production and transmission. The governor of North Dakota also serves as the chair of the State Water Commission, overseeing billions of dollars of water resources and projects.

(27:32)
All of these are parallel responsibilities to Interior and often interacted with interior agencies. North Dakota, of course, is blessed with a rugged natural beauty, including the majesty of the Theodore Roosevelt National Park, which is home to Theodore Roosevelt's Elkhorn Ranch, which is considered by many to be the cradle of modern conservation. And of course, we have beautiful badlands. I'd like to note here on the record that our badlands are significantly badder than South Dakota's badlands. Just tremendously badder, not even close. But in addition to that, we've got great prairies, world-renowned agriculture, we've got amazing hunting and fishing, four-season outdoor recreation, and much, much more. In North Dakota, we created a prosperous economy by sustainably developing our natural resources, along with our respect for the land and the wildlife, and at the same time, having among the cleanest air and the cleanest water in the country. During our tenure, North Dakota experienced among the lowest unemployment in the nation and the highest real GDP growth.

(28:36)
Demographically, our state went from one of the oldest states to one of the youngest. We attracted record levels of talent and investment capital. I say this because our success was underpinned by the understanding that we live in a time of tremendous, tremendous abundance, and we can access that abundance as Americans by prioritizing innovation over regulation. If given the opportunity to serve as the Secretary of Interior, I'll bring those experiences and those lessons learned to the leadership of the tens of thousands of dedicated professionals within the Department of Interior, which brings us to President Trump's vision for a vibrant future that we can achieve together. The American people have clearly placed their confidence in President Trump to achieve energy dominance, and by energy dominance. That's the foundation of American prosperity, affordability for American families, and unrivaled national security. Today, America produces energy cleaner, smarter, and safer than anywhere in the world.

(29:36)
And when energy production is restricted in America, it doesn't reduce demand, it just shifts productions to countries like Russia and Iran whose autocratic leaders not only don't care at all about the environment, but they use their revenues from energy sales to fund wars against us and our allies. President Trump's energy dominance vision will end those wars abroad, will make life more affordable for every family in America by driving down inflation, and President Trump will achieve those goals while championing clean air, clean water, and protecting our beautiful lands.

(30:11)
Next to TR National Park, we're building the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum to honor the leader who advised America to walk softly, speak softly, and carry a big stick. In our time, president Trump's energy dominance can be America's big stick that will be leveraged to achieve historic prosperity and world peace. The Department of Interior in cooperation with the US Congress, this committee and the states, will play a pivotal role in achieving the outcomes to make the world safer and America even better for our children, our grandchildren, and generations to come. I thank you for inviting me here today and look forward to your questions and our discussion.

Sen. Lee (30:56):

Thank you, governor Burgum. We'll now begin our first round of five-

Sen. Lee (31:00):

… minute questions. We'll alternate back and forth between Republicans and Democrats. I'll go first, then Senator Heinrich, and so on and so forth in order of seniority and arrival at the hearing. I want to start by talking briefly about the Antiquities Act. This is a law passed over a century ago by Congress. It gives the president power unilaterally to declare national monuments. Now, there's a restriction in it that requires national monuments occupy no more land that is compatible, the smallest area compatible with the interest to be protected by the monument. These have become something of a political football in parts of the country, especially in my state, in Utah.

(31:42)
President Clinton designated the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in 1996. President Obama added the Bears Ears National Monument in 2016, shortly before he left office. Now, both these designations were made over the objection of the people of Utah and their elected representatives. President Trump later reduced the size of both monuments in 2017 after he got elected to bring them more into conformity with the Antiquities Act's requirement for minimal boundaries. Then in 2021, President Biden re-expanded them, exceeding the scope of the law and disregarding local input. As I explained to President Biden at the time, it's the size of two Delawares within my state that have been moved into this very restricted use classification.

(32:36)
The point is not that there aren't beautiful things to protect in the state, but the line was strong so big and the monument was made so expansive in part because local leaders weren't consulted, and to the extent that they were heard, their council was ignored. So Governor Burgum, I'd like to invite you when you visit Utah to meet with those whose voices were ignored by the Biden administration during those monument re-expansions. Will you work with me to try to fix that current mess and try to figure out how best to proceed and to make sure that the Antiquities Act designated monuments don't exceed the restriction within the statute itself?

Gov. Doug Burgum (33:19):

Well, thank you, Senator Lee, for that important question. The 1905 Antiquities Act, of course, was signed into law by President Roosevelt himself. As you stated multiple times, it states very clearly that it's the smallest possible area to protect those objects, to be protected, and its original intention was really to protect, as it says, antiquities, areas like I would say, Indiana Jones type archeological protections. These are essential that we protect these areas as a country, and that's what the law was intended. But I would look forward to working with you and particularly in the area of local consultation, because when the federal government overreaches into a state like yours that's already has over 60% of its land and public lands and restricts that use, it's got tremendous impact on tribes, on the local communities, and all those around, and I just think it's important that we strike the right balance. I look forward to working with you on this issue.

Sen. Lee (34:19):

Thank you. I appreciate that. Housing is another area that I'd like to address briefly. There's a particularly acute housing shortage in the West where the presence of federal land, not just the presence, but the predominance of federal land available for housing frequently results in shortages. It just makes a lot of things difficult. It's not as though we have one part of the state that is all federal and another part of the state that is all non-federal. It's all intermingled, and as a result, it impacts all kinds of things.

(34:54)
Now, many of our communities in states like Utah and Nevada among others, we find ourselves feeling sort of like we're islands, floating islands within a sea of federal land, and that just constrains growth and makes our constraints on our housing supply that much more dire. I would love to work with you on a bill that I've introduced, that I've worked on for several years, called the Houses Act, in addition to looking for and developing other creative ways to address the housing affordability crisis in the West. In your view, how can the Department of the Interior help address the housing crisis in areas like, as is the case, in my state where the presence of federal land often inhibits community needs?

Gov. Doug Burgum (35:48):

Well, I understand that one of the great challenges we're facing in this nation right now is housing affordability. In my discussion and friendship with Governor Spencer Cox of your state, know that it's a high priority for him and for the state. I think there are opportunities for us to accomplish both. I mean, like I said, we're in a time of abundance when we've got federal lands abutting urban areas, and we maybe have other areas that maybe need to be protected, like we've done in North Dakota as governor. Sometimes we've done land swaps, so we trade state land for private lands to provide better outcomes for both of those pieces of land. And I think there are certainly are opportunities here.

(36:28)
Public lands, in general, some like the national parks, absolutely we need to support and protect every single inch of those. But in other cases, we've got a multiple use scenario for our lands, and I believe there's pathways we can find particularly in states like yourselves and others that have 50, 60% or more of your land held by the federal government that we can find appropriate solutions to help address the housing. Look forward to working with you on that.

Sen. Lee (36:55):

Thank you, Governor. I see my time's expired. We'll turn the time over to Senator Heinrich.

Sen. Heinrich (37:03):

Governor, I want to actually continue on that same vein, and I had a very long and detailed question here written by my staff that I'm going to depart from and just go to the heart of the issue which is, I think what people are concerned about, and this was a very hot issue this year because of legal action, is the idea that we would somehow in a wholesale way divest of our public lands. So talk a little bit about that, how we can stay true to our conservation history, make sure that the things we do on our public lands, especially, well, not especially, but economically, recreationally, and as they play such an essential cultural role in states like mine, can be supported while making smart decisions about individual parcels.

Gov. Doug Burgum (37:58):

Well, thank you, Senator Heinrich. I think we have to look no further than New Mexico for the answer to the fact that we can find the balance because, as I know, Senator Hoeven and I hate to acknowledge, but New Mexico passed North Dakota as the number two oil and gas producer in the state, and yet your state's got a tremendous record of protecting cultural and historical lands and providing that balance. So I think there is certainly the opportunity for us to find that balance going forward where we can protect the land that we need to protect, but also solve issues, whether it's housing or whether it's a resource development that may be of interest to the tribe and the local communities.

Sen. Heinrich (38:43):

That's something we really pride ourselves on in New Mexico, is that we have been able to strike a balance, that we've been able to be an energy leader on many fronts, and at the same time, we've created a number of national monuments even that are not controversial, that are deeply supported by local leaders, by veterans groups, by tribes, by hunters and fishermen alike. So I would just simply ask that before the department makes wholesale changes to conservation designations in the State of New Mexico, at least, that you would meet with myself and any local leaders who help to create those designations in the first place.

Gov. Doug Burgum (39:33):

Yeah. I think, yes, absolutely would look forward to those discussions with you and those. And I think, again, as you've described, the key to this is the local consultation. As Senator Lee and other states have experienced, there have been incidents where there's been complete and total opposition and no local consultation. I think, again, my experience as governor and working with the tribes and working with local communities in North Dakota, whether it's raising associations, county commissioners, mayors, rural residents, I think the consultation is key.

Sen. Heinrich (40:10):

Part of that consultation is also those tribes that have both current and historic connections to those places as well, right?

Gov. Doug Burgum (40:18):

Absolutely.

Sen. Heinrich (40:19):

Right. As a former outfitter guide, I'm really quite excited that this senate and this body just passed the Explorer Act. It's the first major piece of outdoor recreation legislation. Senator Barrasso was incredibly involved in that, as was Senator Manchin. Permitting reform was something I worked on in that piece of legislation. It's kind of a recognition of the big economic driver of our public lands that often doesn't get the same attention that energy and other uses get. So outdoor recreation in New Mexico is responsible for something like 29,000 jobs and billions of dollars of impact. On a national scale, it's over a trillion-dollar economy. So talk again a little bit about how we can balance those competing issues as you did as governor and support that outdoor recreation economy, because it is growing and it is particularly critical to our rural gateway communities.

Gov. Doug Burgum (41:30):

Well, first I would just like to say this is a really important topic, but it's also a passion of mine. As someone who's spent my life as an avid outdoorsman, I was very pleased to get the full endorsement of the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable for this job, which represents that trillion-dollar industry.

Sen. Heinrich (41:49):

I think that's where we first met.

Gov. Doug Burgum (41:50):

Yes. Yeah, where it represents all of these different aspects. I think that the opportunity for… In most states, I recognize this as governor, we created a office of outdoor recreation while I was governor, and continue to invest in whether that's access to fishing and hunting, public access on public lands. We've got a number of great things going on in North Dakota that we've done there that have been really helpful, including using technology. We took all the posting requirements in our state.

(42:23)
We got all the landowners, the pheasant hunters, all the waterfall hunters, got everybody to agree on that. We created a tool even for hunting. You can look on your phone and find out whether the land is posted or not posted. It might be posted no for deer hunting, yes for pheasant hunting, and it includes the phone number and it's posted, but if you call me and talk to me, I might let you on, but then the landowners name and the phone number is right there. So we've been to find tools to bring together landowners and sportsmen on both private lands as well as public lands to try to make sure that we can keep that outdoor economy rolling.

Sen. Heinrich (43:02):

Thank you.

Sen. Lee (43:04):

Senator Daines.

Senator Daines (43:06):

Chairman, thank you. Governor Burgum, welcome, as well as welcome to the First Lady of North Dakota. Good to have you both here. If confirmed, you'll be eighth in line of succession of President of the United States, Governor, and that goes in line with when these departments became part of the United States government. Interior goes back to 1849, and the oldest agency within Interior is the Bureau of Indian Affairs, is BIA. I think it's only fitting before I get into my questions and my remarks if I might submit a letter for the record from the Coalition of Large Tribes, of which three of my 12 federally-recognized tribes in Montana are part of COLT. Of course you have five federally-recognized tribes and members of COLT.

(43:56)
But if I just read the letter that they wrote in your support, it says, "It's been incredible for COLT Tribes to have such a close supporter nominated to the secretary's office. He is someone in whom we have deep trust and confidence. We have gone to him with our most complex difficult issues over many years. He's exactly the kind of leader tribes need at the Interior Department." And they close in the letter by saying this: "Governor Burgum has COLT's highest recommendation and endorsement to serve as the next Secretary of the Interior." Mr. Chairman, I'd like to submit this letter for the record

Sen. Lee (44:34):

Without objection.

Senator Daines (44:37):

Governor, last week, the Fish and Wildlife Service denied Montana and Wyoming's petitions to delist the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem and Northern Continental Divide Ecosystem grizzly bears because these two populations have exceeded recovery targets by so much that the service no longer believes these two populations are even distinct. We should be celebrating the fact that grizzly bear has recovered. It's an example of a great species now that has recovered and is prolific across these ecosystems. But sadly, this ruling coming out of FWS punishes Montana's successful grizzly bear recovery efforts. It's really completely backwards. We should be celebrating the recovery, but instead, we are now having to sacrifice to adjust living with the bears, whether it's predation losses by livestock producers as well as human safety. Sadly, many Montanans have been killed, badly mauled by grizzly bears. So the people back home take this very, very seriously. It's literally gotten point up along the Rocky Mountain front, west of Great Falls where our playgrounds at one of our schools, they have high fence there to protect the children from grizzly bears when they go out for recess.

(46:04)
The service keeps moving these goal posts for delisting and returning these bears to state management where it absolutely belongs, likely done with the wolves. The service set recovery numbers at 500 and 800 respectively for the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem and the Northern Continental Divide Ecosystem. The most recent estimate is now best science 2,100 bears in these two ecosystems. Governor Burgum, would you acknowledge that the data shows the recovery of these two populations and commit to working with me to delist them?

Gov. Doug Burgum (46:43):

Senator Daines, I'm aware of the data, and this is a super important issue, I know, to Montanans, it's important to people, and also in Wyoming and Idaho. I'm with you. We should be celebrating when species come off the endangered species list as opposed to fighting everywhere we can to try to keep them on that list, because as you say, the complications. The other thing you mentioned in your remarks is also the state. Having been a governor, I understand how dedicated are the state Fish and Wildlife representatives are from Montana, from Wyoming, from North Dakota, South Dakota, I mean all of the folks. As the chair of Western Governors, I came to understand how dedicated those state officials are. I think there's a belief that when they come off of federal protection, that they're unprotected. No, they're managed as they are all the other species in the state by the locals who've got the closest data. So yes, I pledge to work with you on this issue.

Senator Daines (47:42):

Thank you, Governor. The Biden administration has been slow walking three critical permits for coal mines in Montana. The Bull Mountain Mine, south of Roundup, the Rosebud Mine that supplies coal for Colstrip, and the Spring Creek Mine in Southeast Montana are all desperate need right now to finalize permits. The Bull Mountains Mine has already had to lay off hardworking Montanans because the Biden's office of surface mining has refused to finish the need of reviews. My question is, when confirmed, will you prioritize completing these permits so Montana families don't lose their jobs?

Gov. Doug Burgum (48:19):

Senator Daines, this is part of a larger crisis our nation is facing around electricity. We have a shortage of electricity and especially we have a shortage of baseload. We know that we have the technology to deliver clean coal. We're doing that at North Dakota. Senator Hoeven and others began these efforts over two decades ago, but we have an opportunity to decarbonize, produce clean coal, and with that, produce reliable baseload for this country. So again, we absolutely would want to work with you on this issue because this is something that's critical to our national security. Without baseload, we're going to lose the AI arms race to China, and if we lose the arms race to China, then that's got direct impacts on our national security and the future of this country.

Senator Daines (49:06):

Mr. Chairman, one just final statement to read and I'll complete my questions. I want to quickly close by highlighting the importance of a bill that I'm working with Senator King of Maine. We co-chair the National Parks Subcommittee. We are proud of the fact that no matter which way the gavel goes, it goes back and forth over time in the US Senate. Angus King and I are always co-chairs as we work together on behalf of our national parks. I'm working with him to reauthorize the National Parks and Public Land Legacy Restoration Fund. This is critical to address the deferred maintenance challenge we face with our great public lands. President Trump signed the greatest conservation win in 50 years when he signed the Great America Outdoors Act, and I thank Vice Chairman Heinrich for helping so much and getting that across the finish line. He signed that in 2020. I hope I encounter your support for reauthorizing this program.

Gov. Doug Burgum (50:02):

You can, absolutely. The Great American Outdoors Act by President Trump was a great step forward, but I know from my own personal experience, governor of North Dakota and working with the Theodore Roosevelt National Park, that the amount of deferred maintenance that we have is probably even greater today across the park system than it was when that bill was passed. So we have to continue to invest in our national parks.

Senator Daines (50:25):

Great. Thank you, Governor.

Sen. Lee (50:27):

Senator Hirono.

Senator Hirono (50:29):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome. As part of my responsibilities to ensure the fitness of nominees before any of the committees on which, I said I ask the following two initial questions. First is, since you became a legal adult, have you ever made unwanted requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature?

Gov. Doug Burgum (50:52):

No. Senator, I have not.

Senator Hirono (50:53):

Have you ever faced discipline or entered into a settlement related to this kind of conduct?

Gov. Doug Burgum (50:58):

I have not.

Senator Hirono (51:00):

We received your testimony late yesterday, and you noted that "President Trump's energy dominance vision will end wars abroad." And President Trump has directed you to expand oil and gas drilling on a massive scale, which will lead to increased burning of fossil fuels. Now, the scientific consensus is that burning fossil fuels is a primary human cause of climate change. In 2017, then secretary of defense, James Mattis, appointed by then President Trump, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "climate change is impacting stability in areas of the world where our troops are operating." In 2014, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said that "climate change is a critical national security threat and a threat multiplier." Now, these are two secretaries of defense. They know something about war. Were you aware that they testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee on a number of times that burning more fossil fuel is actually going to not result in the end of wars, but could very well exacerbate and cause wars? Were you aware of this testimony?

Gov. Doug Burgum (52:27):

Senator, no, I'm not aware of that specific testimony, but I do know that within fossil fuels, the concern has been about emissions. And within emissions, we have the technology to do things like carbon capture to eliminate harmful emissions at the same time.

Senator Hirono (52:42):

Now, the fact of the matter is that you have military leaders who acknowledge that climate change is a major issue, and for you to take the position that you're going to engage in active actions that will result in the burning of more fossil fuel, it's troubling.

(53:07)
As secretary of the interior, it is your duty to see that the department carries out its mission to protect and manage our nation's natural resources and cultural heritage. If you are ordered by the president to act in a manner that is counter to the department's mission or to the Constitution such as drilling in Bear Ears National Monument, will you do as the president asks because he wants to drill in that monument?

Gov. Doug Burgum (53:48):

Senator, of course, as part of my sworn duty, I'll follow the law and follow the Constitution. So you can count on that. And I have not heard of anything about President Trump wanting to do anything-

Senator Hirono (54:04):

Certainly, he wants to-

Gov. Doug Burgum (54:07):

… other than advancing energy production for the benefit of the American people.

Senator Hirono (54:10):

We all know that the president wants to drill, baby, drill. And in your testimony, you say that he has a energy dominance vision. So I would ask you that should you be confirmed that you will have these kinds of matters that you'll have to decide, are you going to drill in a monument? Are you going to protect our natural resources? Or are you going to drill, baby, drill? So I raised that as a concern with you going forward.

(54:42)
Compacts of Free Association, last year, Congress renewed our Compacts of Free Association, and that comes within the purview of Interior. It involves Palau, Micronesia, and the Marshall Islands. I would like to get your commitment to implement the new Compacts of Free Association in accordance with the bipartisan law that was enacted last year.

Gov. Doug Burgum (55:08):

Well, Senator, these Pacific Islands, in addition to the three that you mentioned that are part of the Compact, but also the others that are under the insular areas of Interior, are all critically important to national security for the United States of America. All of them have important military implications. All of these are places where US sailors fought and died during World War II. And with the aggression that China is showing in the Pacific, it's more important that we support them more than ever. I know that Hawaii plays an important role including in things like with medical care for those residents of those islands, and I think it's important that the federal government does its share as opposed to putting the load on the state.

Senator Hirono (55:54):

Thank you. It sounds as though you have familiarity with the Compacts for which I am gratified. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sen. Lee (56:01):

Thank you. Senator Justice.

Senator Justice (56:05):

Governor, first of all, welcome, and welcome to everyone. My questions are going to be short and sweet, but I can tell you just this, that I think we share in the fact that energy, energy is the key. Energy-

Speaker 1 (56:27):

Senator, your mic.

Senator Justice (56:29):

Oh gosh, I don't have my mic on. Okay. Okay, good enough. I'm talking loud enough anyway. But nevertheless, energy is such a key, such a key that opens every door, in my opinion, every single door, and the world is starving for us America to lead the way. And I believe we share that thought. I believe we share the thought that electricity, if we don't watch out, will become a crisis like we can't imagine, and we absolutely need to be prepared and move forward in that. But we've got a problem along the way. Permitting has gotten totally outrageous. And absolutely, we all want it to be fair and proper and not endanger our environment. We all share in that. But absolutely I ask you, Governor, I ask you, please tell us your thoughts on how we're going to approach this, how we're going to approach the issues with Fish and Wildlife and on and on and on. Please tell us.

Gov. Doug Burgum (57:37):

Well, I should say, Governor, now Senator, so great that you're here in the Senate, and what a fantastic job you did as governor, and it was a pleasure serving alongside of you as another energy state. You've got everything, you get it, we are in an energy crisis in our country, and the first place is actually related to electricity. Electricity is at the brink. Our grid is at a point where it could go completely unstable. We could be just months away from having skyrocketing prices for Americans. Of course, as we talked about in the AI arms race, we need electricity for manufacturing, and AI is manufacturing intelligence. And if we don't manufacture more intelligence that are adversaries, it affects every job, every company, and every industry. You understand this, and we've got to get to work.

(58:30)
The permitting right now in some of the queues in FERC for electricity, it's seven years or longer. Completely, that queue in FERC is 95% intermittent sources and only 5% baseload. We need baseload to be able to allow the renewables to be part of the system. We've got to have the balance between those two, or the grid, which is like a giant machine, just doesn't work. So we've got to get to work in permitting reform and speeding permitting. Right now we've stacked the deck where we are creating roadblocks for people that want to do baseload, and we've got massive tax incentives for people that want to do intermittent and unreliable. The balance is out of whack, and we've got to bring it back in line. We can do that and still achieve the objectives that we want to have about having cleaner environment because the US has done that. We are the one nation on the planet that's actually reduced CO₂ over the last 20 years. We are the ones that have done it. China's doubled their CO₂ emissions in the same timeframe.

Senator Justice (59:36):

Well, thank you, sir, and thank you for your kind comments as well. Now, if I could just ask one more question and just shift just a little bit. We all know the outdoors touches our soul, and I'm an outdoorsman like crazy. I have enjoyed hunting and fishing all across this nation, but especially in my home state of West Virginia. And I welcome you to come to West Virginia to experience that, just what I'm speaking of. But I would just say just this, we have an attack on our sport of hunting and fishing. Hunters absolutely do so much to contribute to all the goodness all across all of our lands, to all the wildlife, to all the different things that happen within the sport of hunting. And I know you share my love just as much as I know my love. With all that being said, what will you do to ensure that we will perpetuate this unbelievable tradition to our youth, to our youth and all those to come? What will you do, sir?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:00:43):

Well, Senator, in North Dakota, we've taken steps, as I know other states have done, to create youth hunting seasons, youth hunter education, make it more available, create more opportunities, as we have also done for disabled and wounded veterans. But when we have public lands and we've got public access, the greatest conservationists in our country, and some are probably listening today, but whether it's the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Mule Deer, Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, you name any of these organization, they're the ones that raise the money that actually pour dollars into conservation in this country.

(01:01:20)
Hunters, the Safari Club, all of these different groups, and of course President Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, one of the founders of Boone and Crockett, I mean he was a hunter who also set the ethic for conservation for our country. So these two things go hand in hand. You cannot separate hunting from the love of outdoors, respect for wildlife, and dollars that flow back into habitat, and making sure that we've got the privilege of hunting for the public. It doesn't matter who you are. In North Dakota, you can get a $20 tag and go on a hunt that's just as amazing as if you were going to Africa. I mean, it is a

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:02:00):

… a miracle that we have in this country, one of the few countries that has that, something we have to fight and protect to preserve.

Senator Justice (01:02:07):

Thank you sir. And I've only got just one other comment. President Trump is bringing to us amazing nominees, but in my book, this man, just think just for one second. He's super smart. His track record's unbelievable. He has experience off the chart. If anybody is the pick of the litter, it's got to be this man. He's done an amazing job, but he's got courage like you can't imagine.

(01:02:39)
Just think about this, he stood on one leg at the debate and absolutely, with a torn Achilles, and I've been a coach forever in basketball, and I've seen kids get a torn Achilles and absolutely it is one serious injury. How you did this, I will never know. But nevertheless, I give him kudos for courage beyond belief. Thank you so much, sir.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:03:06):

Thank you, Senator.

Chair (01:03:09):

Maybe you'll tell us that someday, I assume it involved just biting on a leather strap until moments before you walked on the debate stand. But we can save that for another day.

(01:03:17)
Senator King.

Senator Angus King (01:03:19):

Thank you Mr. Chairman. I associate myself with the comments about sportsmen. Just several weeks ago I accepted the chairmanship of the Congressional Sportsman's Foundation, which I'm greatly honored to do and look forward to working with you on those issues. I have visited your wonderful state camp there, visited Minot with Senator Cramer, and I must say Minot is the flattest place I've ever been in my life. One of the locals said the good thing about it is if your dog runs away, you can still see him after three days.

(01:03:53)
And I also want to compliment you. A lot of people talk about an all of the above energy strategy. You did it. You implemented it in North Dakota. Over 30%, 36% of your electricity comes from wind. And I hope one of the projects you might undertake when you … when and if you are confirmed, is to convince your boss that wind power isn't all bad. He is well known for his opposition to wind power, but you know that the benefits are there.

(01:04:25)
Of course, base load is also important. Storage is important to balance the grid. I understand that. But coming from a state where 35, 36% of your electricity came from wind, I hope you can talk to the president about the fact that wind has its virtues and can contribute significantly. Because we are, as you note, facing a huge energy challenge over the next 15 to 20 years to support the knowledge economy. Will you undertake that project?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:05:00):

Senator King, certainly you've got great wind resources in Maine. We've got good wind resources in North Dakota. Not every state is lucky to have that. The resources that we do or the wind is blowing. Maybe that flat ground helps us on that, very few trees to stop the wind. But I would say the key here you mentioned is baseload versus the intermittent because we've got to have the right balance and we maybe have tipped a little too far in one direction. So I think that's the key piece for us, the key short-term emergency.

Senator Angus King (01:05:29):

But you do see the value of wind power, a third of your state's electricity comes from that source.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:05:35):

And most of that we export. And so I think our neighbors are happy to have that. But I would also say that, again, it is … We need an all-the-above strategy. It's what we've had at North Dakota-

Senator Angus King (01:05:46):

And a balance.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:05:48):

It's a balance, but we need more. We need more. And the thing we're short of most right now is baseload.

Senator Angus King (01:05:54):

Well, Maine has an asset similar to yours offshore and the Department of the Interior executed several leases recently. I hope I can have your commitment to continue with those leases. They will produce enough energy for all the homes in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont. It's an enormous resource in the Gulf of Maine that can provide significant energy. As you may know, the capacity factor of offshore wind is significantly higher than terrestrial wind. So I hope that your department will continue with the projects that are already underway. Will you commit to that?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:06:33):

I'm not familiar with every project that the interior has underway, but I'll certainly be taking a look at all of those. And if they make sense and they're already in law, then they'll continue. I think the key is, and I think President Trump's been very clear in his statements, that he's concerned about the significant amount of tax incentives that have gone towards some forms of energy that have helped exacerbate this imbalance that we're seeing right now today.

Senator Angus King (01:07:01):

You talked briefly to some of the other questions about permitting reform, and I was involved in the discussions with Senator Barrasso, Senator Manchin and others about the permitting bill that unfortunately we couldn't get across the goal line at the end of the last Congress. I presume that permitting reform not only is for generation projects, but transmission. Do you appreciate the difficulty of permitting transmission assets, particularly in the West?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:07:26):

Well, yes, and I think that this is one of the challenges of our time and it's one of the challenges that we need to undertake because whether it's a transmission line, a pipeline, whatever it happens to be trying to get built, it just takes too long in our country. And if we don't have … It's one thing to be able to generate that electricity, but if we don't have the ability to transmit it to the places where it's needed, that's going to be a problem.

Senator Angus King (01:07:52):

Exactly. Senator Daines has already mentioned the America the Beautiful plaque that he and I have introduced. It's a refresh of the Great American Outdoors Act, one of the most successful initiatives of the Trump administration. I remember working with Secretary Zinke on that project, so I gratified to hear your support for that proposal.

(01:08:12)
Final point is we talked about, and that talks about the backlog of maintenance in the National Parks and public lands. One of the problems is the department has chronically underfunded maintenance on an ongoing basis. In other words, we are being asked to create … to fix a backlog that frankly should not have existed. And I hope that you'll work with a National Park Service and the Office of Management and Budget to be sure that a sufficient fund is allocated to ongoing maintenance so we don't continue to dig the hole deeper.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:08:49):

Well, I agree with you on that, and this is one of the things when I came in as a business guy in the government, I was shocked to find out that we, in North Dakota, didn't have appropriate formulas for funding deferred maintenance. Everybody was happy to approve appropriations to build new buildings, but it was tough to get a dime to take care of the ones we already have.

(01:09:13)
And I think that this is something we're going to take a look at procedurally within Interior. I know that we've got over 2,400 locations, I'm told, in terms of where we've got people stationed. We've just got to make sure that, not just the national parks, but across the whole department. But we've got to get the formulas right because we're creating liabilities for future generations if we're not taking care of that deferred maintenance.

Senator Angus King (01:09:39):

I can tell you that the formula right now is not right, so I encourage you to take that step. Thank you very much, Governor, for joining us, and we'll look forward to hearing from you further in this hearing. Thank you.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:09:49):

Thank you, Senator.

Chair (01:09:50):

Senator McCormick.

Senator Daines (01:09:52):

Governor, good to see you. Catherine, good to see you. We had a great meeting, I guess a week or two ago, and I promised to visit the baddest Badlands in the Dakotas. I'm looking forward to that. And I know we got all these energy state governors here, but in Pennsylvania we like to think that the path to energy dominance goes through the Keystone state. So I'm so glad to have you here before us today.

(01:10:13)
When we met, we talked about an energy and innovation summit that I'm planning to do later this year where we bring in energy companies, AI companies, as well as big investors, and an opportunity to really celebrate and also make more progress on President Trump's vision of energy dominance. I was happy to talk to you about that. Look forward to working with you and Secretary Wright on that, and just hoping I can start with getting your support to work with me closely on that and make that a reality.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:10:42):

Well, I think it's a great idea, Senator, and I think it is absolutely true. The Keystone State is the key, and there's such a resource there. I mean, wow, so few Americans understand that Pennsylvania is now producing 20% of our nation's natural gas. And, of course, the fact that innovators in the private sector invested, the whole shale revolution that got created in this country, has been a miracle.

(01:11:10)
I mean, we went from being one of the largest importers of energy to one of the largest exporters. And at the time, in Russia, they ran a campaign with all of the PSYOPs they have, we can't be naive. They pounded Europe for 10 years of getting everybody in Europe and Germany to shut down all their baseload so they could buy natural gas from Russia. Then they invade Russia … Russia invades Ukraine, the price goes up, Russia makes bank like they've never made before, and they're funding a war against this. Germany then rushes to try to reopen their baseload power plants. They're doing all that. If America hadn't come to the rescue with LNG exports from our country to Western Europe, this thing could have escalated even beyond the tragedy that we see today in Ukraine.

Senator Daines (01:11:58):

Couldn't agree more. And that really relates to my second question, which is as Pennsylvania as you mentioned, the second largest natural gas producer, and yet America's allies, even states across our great country, can't get access to LNG. So we need to really expand LNG exports. And it'd be a huge win and create a lot of great jobs for Americans, a lot of great jobs for Pennsylvania.

(01:12:24)
So as chair of the National Energy Council, how will you work with the administration to increase natural gas production and new export terminals, get new export terminals online in places like Pennsylvania as quickly as possible?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:12:39):

Well, of course, I learned in the private sector, in public companies, you want to make forward-looking statements and the Energy Council is yet to be created hopefully by an EO early in this administration. But one thing I would say that's not a forward-looking statement, it's just a fact and talked about it with Senator King, but we've got 80% of the homes in Maine are still heating their homes with heating oil. It's 41% in New Hampshire, and we can't get a pipeline with clean US natural gas in New England to states like Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Maine. And at the time of the Russian invasion, not only had Western Europe become dependent, we were offloading hundreds of thousands of barrels of dirty Russian heating oil into New England.

Senator Daines (01:13:25):

In Boston Harbor, right?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:13:26):

Yeah. So, I mean, it's like we have a national security issue and we've got to be able to get clean US energy to every state. We need the transportation networks, whether it's pipelines or transmission lines to do that. We can't be at a time of risk of global risk like we are now in global national security to be in a position where we're exposed to supply chains that depend on our adversaries. Whether it's critical minerals with China or whether it's heating oil from Russia or uranium from Russia, we can't be dependent on them. We've got the resources here. We need to develop them.

Senator Daines (01:14:01):

Like many energy producing states, Pennsylvania has thousands of orphaned wells that need to be plugged. Many states have programs to plug these wells that have worked pretty well over many years. I'm concerned that the federal funding that's available for that's being held up for a number of these projects because of red tape. And so, as secretary, will you streamline these requirements so states like mine can quickly access the much needed funding to plug these wells?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:14:29):

Well, this is a, I don't want to say a passion project because I'm passionate about a lot of things, but the federal legislation, which was put in place after the pandemic was modeled after something we created in North Dakota. And I want to thank Senator Hoeven, Senator Cramer for their work on doing that. Pennsylvania, of course, you guys have been producing in drilling oil wells since the 1880s. North Dakota's first one wasn't until 1951, so ours were all easier to track of. We've got ours down now in North Dakota to under 200. There are other states that have tens of thousands of abandoned orphan wells. And this is something from an environmental standpoint, we've got to take care of. The technology's there, we can clean it up, and there's ways to do that. And it can be great for the local economy, great for reclamation. There's a way to do it. So I've got a lot of knowledge in this area and you can count on my support to make sure that we've got a-

Senator Daines (01:15:27):

Look forward to working with you on that.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:15:28):

… take care of this. I mean, part of it, the US can be energy dominant, but we have to maintain the path which we're on. We do it cleaner, safer and smarter than anybody else in the world, and we have to maintain that.

Senator Daines (01:15:39):

Thank you.

Chair (01:15:41):

Senator Cortez Masto.

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:15:43):

Thank you, Governor. Good to see you again. Thank you for meeting with me. Welcome to your wife, Catherine. It's a good name. Thank you very much.

(01:15:52)
We talked a little bit about this, but I want to bring this to the public as well because Senator Lee and I do have a lot in common when it comes to our public lands that most of the lands in the state of Nevada, about 85%, are owned by the federal government. And he's right, we have to manage not only our housing issues, but economic development unlike some of the states, your state where you own most of the land. And so we're always looking for that partnership with our federal partners.

(01:16:22)
And Nevada has a successful track record when it comes to bringing different parties together to create that balance of releasing public land for that needed development, conserving lands, addressing various land management needs. And an example of that collaboration is my Southern Nevada Lands bill. And so I am hopeful that based on your comments already to my colleagues, that you believe in a balanced land use that key to that is local consultation and state consultation. I agree.

(01:16:54)
So I am hoping that you will be willing to work with us as we address in Nevada our housing needs, which is an issue, as well as economic development and work with me on my Southern Nevada Lands bill and other lands bills in the state of Nevada. Would you commit to doing that?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:17:09):

Yeah, absolutely, Senator. I know that you, other than Alaska, you guys are in the top of the list in terms of having the most amount of federal land. You got some of the same challenges around affordable housing that Senator Lee is seeing in Utah and with the great success of population growth in the southern Nevada. And I think, again, there's some creative ideas about land exchanges. You've thought through it, I can tell. Would look forward to working with you.

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:17:37):

Thank you, I appreciate that. I want to touch on also a comment that you made, tax incentives going towards some forms of energy creates an imbalance for baseload. That's what I've heard you and you made that comment when we were together as well. Let me ask you this, because in Nevada it is important for us to absolutely have an opportunity to support public-private partnerships in clean energy. And I would imagine you support public-private partnerships.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:18:07):

I think it is great whenever we can get more market incentives built into programs or if we spend a tax dollar, if we can match it with two or three from the private sector. That's one of the things we did in North Dakota to really both grow our economy and extend the return on investment for every taxpayer dollar invested.

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:18:25):

And I appreciate that. And so with that said, there is a role for the federal government to be a part of incentivizing and supporting those public-private partnerships. Would you agree with that?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:18:34):

Yeah, we're appropriate. Absolutely.

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:18:36):

All right. And in Nevada, because of the Inflation Reduction Act as well as the bipartisan infrastructure package, we have benefited not only in Nevada with jobs and growing our economy, but in contributing to our national security and bringing back manufacturing to this country. Because we have critical mineral mining going on in Nevada, thanks to those pieces of legislation, we have the complete ecosystem for battery, not only manufacturing, but storage and recycling as well.

(01:19:11)
And our energy now is both gas as well as solar. Solar is really one of the number one areas that we have in the state for our energy needs. And that's why battery storage is important. So let me ask you this, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but isn't the combination of renewables plus battery storage, baseload?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:19:34):

Yep. That's certainly the future. And again, like I said before, all the above. We need all forms of electricity. We're short of electricity in this country. We just have to make sure that we have the balance. Because if we don't have the baseload, the intermittent, and I'll call it unreliable because you can't … The sun doesn't always shine. The wind doesn't always blow until we get storage. And storage is still a few years out to where we're going to be able to operate at grid scale to be able to make that work. Until we get to that time, we really have to have two systems. We have to-

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:20:06):

I agree. But if we don't have the incentives continue that research and making sure that's happening. Because it's happening in Nevada right now.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:20:12):

Yes.

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:20:13):

I've been to the facilities, we see it. If we don't have those incentives, then we're never going to get there. And so my concern is, and what I'm hearing is, under this administration, a shift from those incentives for renewables back to fossil fuels. And that is not going to do any of us, really, in this country a benefit to, at the end of the day, leaning into clean energy, being dominant in that space of clean energy, protecting our national security when it comes to that clean energy as well. So I do think there is a balanced approach here, but not one at the expense of another.

(01:20:53)
And I'm hopeful based on your experience as a governor, what I just heard, and I know about your state because you found that balanced approach for energy and every state's going to be different based on their geography, that you're going to work with states as well and not take away an opportunity where they can have that balanced approach for energy. Would you be willing to do that, even stand up to the administration when it somehow is not a benefit, what they're trying to do to a state like the state of Nevada? I'm a Republican governor and IRA in lockstep when it comes to moving forward in this space.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:21:26):

Well, there are certainly big opportunities in Nevada, whether it's a solar, geothermal, there's a lot of opportunities, critical minerals, lots of things to work on. But I would say that the benefit to every American is, if we have base load that's reliable, that works. That's part of how we have affordability. I mean, every American today is paying more for their electricity than they were before. So the current policy is hurting every American.

(01:21:52)
It hasn't happened yet, but it's coming soon, more and more brownouts and blackouts because we aren't going to have the balance in the grid. And I think every senator and every governor is going to be hearing from every consumer. And so this is something we have to work on together as a priority to make sure that we restore a balance to the grid. And that means that we, like I said, you take a look at a FERC queue that's got 95% intermittent and unreliable, that probably tells us we're a little bit out of balance and we've just got to bring it back and then keep moving forward.

(01:22:22)
But great opportunities to work with you in Nevada. You've got some special opportunities and resources, and I'd say critical minerals, which you've mentioned. I'm glad you brought them up. But we, in the IRA, we passed all kinds of incentives for electric vehicles at a time when China's controlling 85% of the critical minerals in the world. So, I mean, incenting something which increases our on a major adversary, because we're in a cold war with China, and we're in a cyber war every day with them. I mean, right now we're in a cyber war with them, North Korea, Russia, Iran. Every day we're being attacked by these folks.

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:23:00):

So you don't support the credits for electric vehicles, and that would be something that you would support the administration repealing?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:23:05):

Well, I support economics and markets, and if you add up the EV totals, it's over $900 per ton of CO₂ avoided. And in North Dakota, we can give you a liquid fuel with zero carbon in it for 60 bucks. And so we're doing that today with carbon sequestration for biofuels.

Senator Catherine Cortez Masto (01:23:28):

And I know my time is up and I look forward to talking to you about this, but thank you. I appreciate it.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:23:31):

Yeah.

Chair (01:23:31):

Senator Hoeven.

Sen. Hoeven (01:23:32):

I think that interchange demonstrates the kind of really high-level discussion that Governor Burgum brings to these issues. I mean, he really will work through these issues and applies a real analytical approach to problem-solving. I think that's really important for both sides of the aisle. I think that's something that people are going to very much appreciate about him.

(01:23:54)
Federal law requires that on public lands, there be multiple use. Recently, the BLM promulgated rules that violate that law very clearly, in my opinion. Do you support multiple use on federal lands? And I think I know you do, but I want you to express it for the record, and then I want you to tell us why it's so important that we have multiple use on public lands, not just in our state, but across this country.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:24:22):

Well, thank you, Senator Hoeven. The answer is obviously yes, but this is the public lands, and particularly when we talk about aspects of BLM, this is essential to local economies. And whether that's grazing rights that we're part of this, whether it's recreation opportunities and access, whether it's timber, or whether it's oil and gas and mineral production that supports local economies and supports our country. This is what this land was put away for the benefit, the use, and the enjoyment of the American people.

(01:24:54)
Not every acre of federal land is a national park or a wilderness area. Some of those areas we have to absolutely protect for their precious stuff. But the rest of it, this is America's balance sheet. And I think every American during a presidential campaign finds out and gets pounded into their head that we've got $36 trillion in debt. We got all this debt, we got all this debt. Oh, Americans, you owe part of this national debt, 36 trillion. This is on you. We never talk about the assets. And the assets are the land and minerals.

(01:25:27)
This agency, Interior, the Department of Interior, has got close to 500 million acres of surface, 700 million acres of subsurface, and over 2 billion acres of offshore, 2 billion. That's the balance sheet of America. And if we were a company, they would look at us and say, "Wow, you are really restricting your balance sheet, and you know what those assets are worth?" We don't. I believe we ought to have a deep inventory of all the assets in America. We ought to understand maybe what are our assets? A hundred trillion, 200 trillion. We could be in great shape as a country.

(01:26:01)
But then if you said, wow, if we have 200 trillion in assets just sitting there, but we restrict access, we don't cut a tree, we don't use them for recreation, and then we don't develop the minerals sustainably and smart, in a smart way, then we're getting super low return for the American people. It's our responsibility to get a return for the American people when we do that.

(01:26:21)
When we do that in North Dakota, you started it as governor on the land board, in our little state, we got a $12 billion endowment for K-12 for about 125,000 kids. I mean, we got an endowment bigger than most universities in the country for our K-12 system because learned how to utilize this stuff. And guess what? We still have among the cleanest air, cleanest water, greatest recreation in the nation. This is the time of abundance. We can do all of it.

Sen. Hoeven (01:26:49):

And so it really is about working with people in all these different uses. And that's true with working with the … in Indian country on the reservations as well, right? Empowering the local tribe to decide, make those decisions about how they use the land and all the beneficial ways that they can, right?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:27:10):

Yes. Well, in our state, I mean, MHA Nation, the Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, the three affiliated tribes, one of the great energy tribes in our country, these guys are, I'd say, the hardest job in America. It's not being a governor or a senator. The hardest job in America is a tribal chairman because you get a whole nother layer of federal bureaucracy on top of you, and they show up at MHA and they say, "Hey, you guys are doing too much flaring." And then they say, "Well, we wouldn't be if you'd give us a permit to actually do a gas gathering line." So the same government that tells them that they're flaring too much, won't give them the permit to do the thing that we can do in the rest of the state. So they get constrained.

Sen. Hoeven (01:27:49):

In addition to serving a Secretary of Interior, there's also the role as the leader of the National Energy Council. Very important. Talk for a minute for the time we have left, and you might even go over a little bit. The chairman's really a good guy. So talk about how you implement a game plan to achieve that goal of energy dominance that President Trump wants for this nation.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:28:14):

Well, again, I think, I don't want to get caught in making forward-looking statements because the council will be formed by an EO, but I think that the intention, as you can read in President Trump's public statements are very simple. He wants to cut red tape. He wants to have more affordable energy for us. He wants to sell energy to our friends and allies so they don't have to buy it from our adversaries. That's how we reduce tensions in the world. And then we've got to make sure that we're doing it in a smart way, because he talks all the time about clean air, clean water.

(01:28:45)
So he's basically talking about the approach that we're talking about here at this committee. This committee will be deeply involved in helping set those policies, but it's an all of above, go get it done, and stop getting in the way of ourselves. And particularly with this AI, the AI battle, people don't understand that what's coming right now with AI revolution is going to happen during President Trump's term, where when we have generalized intelligence that we can manufacture, it is going to affect our ability to compete with every other power. And China is, they permitted more than two coal plants a week in the first half of 2023, and they're already the world's largest emitter.

(01:29:28)
So we're competing against someone who's going to create more electricity, produce more AI, and this could be how we lose the Cold War with them, if we don't get it. We have to do it here. And we're a country that believes in reclamation. We believe in following labor laws. China, child labor, no reclamation, no care about the environment. They're a tough competitor right now, and in terms of their ability to produce electricity. So we've got to get going. We've got to cut red tape. And we got to realize that if you shut down US energy production here, it doesn't help the global environment. That's a false trade off. It doesn't help because somebody else produces it someplace else, less cleaner than we do.

Sen. Hoeven (01:30:05):

Thank you.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:30:06):

Thank you.

Chair (01:30:07):

Senator Cantwell.

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:30:08):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Burgum on your nomination, and I hope to run through a couple of questions here. So help me out in your brevity, if possible. I know the ranking member anyway, and maybe even the chairman brought up our beautiful outdoor economy, which we've heard from your senator that apparently you're a big outdoorsman yourself. But not only you become steward of over 20% of the land in the United States, but some of the most beautiful iconic places in America. And these are an economic juggernaut. They are in my state. If you think about Mount Rainier or Olympic National Park, or the Hanford Reach, or many other places.

(01:30:53)
The outdoor rec economy generates $1.2 trillion in economic output every year, $1.2 trillion, and accounts for 5 million jobs. And I believe continues to grow at an incredible clip that when you think about economic development in some of our more rural communities, it doesn't take a lot to add a little bit of infrastructure. And then next thing you know, you're off to the races as to making a tourism and an economic impact to these economies.

(01:31:24)
I think in North Dakota, it was your third largest industry generating $1 billion and 14,000 jobs, and you actually created an office of outdoor recreation. Good for you. Good for you. So I think you get it, but now when we talk about this oil … First of all, first want to make sure on the public lands, will you support more input in outdoor recreation economies and gateway communities, and will you fully utilize the LWCF and support the conservation legacies bills that we've passed?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:31:59):

Well, of course. First of all, in your comments on outdoor recreation, I agree completely on the importance of this. And it's not only good for the economy, it's also good for the health of Americans. I mean, I think one thing that we understand is that we just need more people to get off their devices, get outdoors, get engaged, understand the importance of our land, our wildlife, our soil health, all that aspects of it.

(01:32:22)
And again, we are facing a mental health and addiction crisis in our country. And part of the answer is, for many people, is that getting that connection back to the outdoors. So support that completely and would look forward to working with you on your other issues as well.

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:32:37):

Great. So you support the LWCF that we've passed in continuing to support those funds?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:32:44):

Some of those acronyms I'm less familiar with, so I'd look forward to learning more about them, but-

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:32:49):

Okay. Well, we'll get you a question for the record, because it's vitally important, we believe. We think we broke through, finally. And the reason why I'm asking this because the lead up to the next question.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:32:59):

Okay.

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:32:59):

You're for

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:33:00):

… this very aggressive oil and lease strategy, I think, or maybe you're going to take this helm over with a group of people and say, "We need to do more on the oil and gas."

(01:33:10)
Part of our efforts have been to show that these federal lands are very important in an outdoor economy, and so how many areas that we've already leased for oil and gas that aren't being used, why don't we start there? Why don't we just start with those? The leases that are already there, why don't we start with that?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:33:29):

Well, I think I would use the term that I was for aggressive. I've never stated that. I'm for following the law. In the current administration in North Dakota for the first time since Harry Truman, the quarterly lease sales were not held as required by law. It didn't happen for two years. We ended up having to sue the federal government just to follow the law, so I think the starting place is for us to go back to follow the law on these.

(01:33:59)
And then again, we always want to prioritize those areas that have the most resource opportunity for America with the least impact on lands that are important, and I think that's a pretty simple formula to be able to figure that out given the scale of the amount of public lands we have. We can do a lot more without touching or even being visible to any of the people that are concerned about land use.

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:34:27):

So you would prioritize the existing leases?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:34:30):

I'm not sure if I understand the-

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:34:32):

A juxtapose to this conversation, which we've had many times in this committee, "Oh, let's expand more leases that we don't have right now." I'm sure the chairman, we could get into a very long discussion here about Bears Ears. Particularly, I wasn't for expanding oil and gas leasing into Bears Ears. It's a beautiful protected area. I personally think that the outdoor [inaudible 01:34:55] is a juggernaut.

(01:34:56)
I don't want offshore drilling off the coast of Washington. I got a marine sanctuary. Why in God's name? I have a Cascadia fault line. I mean, I could have devastation to an economy that's paying dividends. Why would I want to do that?

(01:35:10)
So I'm just saying one of the things that would be helpful to hear from you is that you believe in prioritizing on federal land the leases that are already there as opposed to now going and saying, "Okay, let's get a big map and open up all federal land to new leasing." Because your point about efficiency, yeah. The most efficient thing is go after what you already have.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:35:30):

Well, before I can make an affirmative statement that I agree with you, I would have to understand, because what I've seen in my time as governor is not that we have existing, but we're actually restricting legal access for development, or timber, or oil and gas, or whatever on public lands today by illegally not holding the leases that should have been held, so I'm not-

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:35:56):

Okay. Well, my time is up, and I'm now in the red, so I'm going to get cut off here, but we will submit something for you and submit something for the record on that. I'm sure I'll submit something on fire and CLT, and maybe you and I can have a discussion about what I think really would help us move forward on some of those issues.

(01:36:13)
But I also, just for the record, on tribal sovereignty, you believe in tribal sovereignty, you believe in tribal consultation, which doesn't mean you just pick up the phone and have one conversation. Tribal consultation means you actually, when the federal government says, "Hey, so much money needs to go to tribes," that you actually figure out the plan for that to happen.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:36:33):

Well, tribal consultation to me as governor of North Dakota has meant actually spending time and going to the tribes, sometimes listening for hours to really understand what the issues are, and getting to people ahead of time, and then working on things that are important. We achieved MOUs on law enforcement. I mean, some of the scarcest and most devastating law enforcement in this country right now is the lack of BIA agents on federal land.

(01:37:01)
I mean, some of the tribal reservations have become harbors for criminal organizations because they know that we don't have enough resource there, and then our local county sheriffs, the state police, in many cases, didn't have jurisdiction. That's just one. Healthcare is another. I mean-

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:37:15):

Yep. Thank you. I'm sorry. The chairman's going to cut me off, but thank you so much for that answer. I appreciate it. That is the kind of stewardship we need with our partnership between us and Indian Country. Thank you.

Sen. Lee (01:37:26):

Thank you. We're going to go to Senator Murkowski. Now, I do want to interject here. There is no significant oil in the Bears Ears. There is no plan to drill for oil in the Bears Ears. I'm not aware of any significant oil reserves.

(01:37:39)
Look, there are cattle that graze in that area, there are recreation purposes, there are some other things that go on there. I don't know who came up with this idea that somebody's getting ready to drill in the Bears Ears National Monument. That's paranoid fantasy. That's not a thing.

(01:37:57)
The dispute here is about the process by which it was designated, unilateral presidential action taken without consultation, and to the extent there was any input, it was negative input by the local affected people in a way that affects their access to recreation, their ability to continue to graze their cattle as they have, and other reasons, so let's just keep those facts straight. Senator Murkowski.

Senator Maria Cantwell (01:38:21):

Happy news to hear that you don't want to drill there.

Sen. Lee (01:38:23):

Well, yeah. I mean, there's no oil there, so. Senator Murkowski.

Senator Murkowski (01:38:27):

Well, we got oil. We got oil, and governor-

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:38:31):

Yes you do.

Senator Murkowski (01:38:32):

… it's good to see you, and it's good to have these robust conversations. As you and I discussed, part of our challenge in Alaska is not lack of resource, whether it is oil, or gas, coal, whether it's our renewables with everything from, yes, wind, the geothermal, even solar, yes, tidal power, we've got it all.

(01:39:00)
But our big challenge, as you know, is access, and it's been noted that there's several states that the Department of Interior has probably a disproportionate impact. It doesn't do my heart any good to oftentimes refer to the Secretary of Interior as Alaska's landlord, but we pretty much have to go to Interior to ask for permission to do anything.

(01:39:27)
And this is regardless of what our statehood compact says, regardless of what ANILCA, ANCSA, the lands, or the laws that have direct impact to us. So it's good to be able to have a conversation with you as the nominee for the Department of Interior and knowing that you have the scope of knowledge and experience that you bring to these issues.

(01:39:55)
I love the fact that you're talking about America's balance sheet including assets that we have, such as lands and minerals. Part of the challenge that we have in Alaska is that oftentimes when we talk about our nation's inventory of assets, we're not on the map, we're not included in the surveys, and we're told, "Well, it's going to be hard to assess that."

(01:40:23)
Well, yes, but look at it from the business perspective. Just because it's hard to assess your assets, you think you're going to keep them off of that ledger, off that balance sheet? So as we're talking about these, recognize that we not only have what we know we have; we probably have three and four and five and 10 times more. We just need to be able to do that assessment, so looking forward to that kind of engagement with you.

(01:40:54)
We have a lot of work to do with the Department of Interior. You and I have had a chance to go over many of these issues, but again, so much of it is about access. And the first question that I'm going to ask, or the first commitment that I'm going to ask of you, is one that I can guarantee that nobody around this panel has mentioned, and this has to do with polar bears.

(01:41:23)
The Biden administration has done a lot of things that most Alaskans don't appreciate, and last week, we added another thing to the list. We learned Interior is not going to finish its revised incidental take regulations, these ITRs, for North Slope activities, and it's going to leave this very routine renewal of current letters of authorization as unfinished business.

(01:41:49)
Well, when you leave those authorizations as unfinished business, it means that the business of what is going on in the North Slope is put on pause, put on hold. So I need your commitment that you'll work with Alaskans, particularly the Inupiat people up there, the North Slope borough up there, on basically all things polar bear.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:42:13):

Well, I'll be happy to do that. And as you know better than anyone, Senator, I think close to half of the land and subsurface and offshore that Interior controls is in Alaska, so Interior, you may view as a landlord, but I would view Alaska as one of the biggest assets this country has and one of the biggest responsibilities of Interior, and look forward to working with you.

Senator Murkowski (01:42:37):

That's exactly what I was hoping you would say, recognizing really the significance there. And I don't want the Department of Interior to be a landlord. I want you to be a partner. I want you to be a partner with us as we determine how we achieve the balance that we talk about in this committee because we are just as proud of our outdoor activities.

(01:43:01)
You have had an opportunity firsthand. I love your story about the time that you spent in Alaska. We of course welcome you back anytime, all the time. But we've been able to access our resources, whether it's timber or whether it's oil, and still provide for a place that most would say, "This is where I want to go before I die," type of a location, so I think we're doing something right there.

(01:43:32)
I need to alert you as well as my colleagues, and when we talk about the abundance, we have it in Alaska, but when you can't access it, we are now in a situation in my state, we're in the south-central portion, where pretty much 75, 80% of the people actually are living in this region, where the energy, the natural gas that we have been relying on out of Cook Inlet is dwindling in its supply. We are talking, as we speak, about building an import terminal to import liquefied natural gas from Canada to keep the lights on and to keep homes warm in Alaska where we have unquantifiable reserves of natural gas. We just need to figure out how we're going to be able to commercialize this.

(01:44:25)
So we need the help to unleash the opportunities that we have to not only allow Alaska to have that energy independence that we so rightfully should have, but also to be able to help not only our country, but our friends and allies. And we've had plenty of time to talk about it.

(01:44:49)
My time has expired. I'm hoping we're going to have another round because I don't want to submit questions to the record for you, I want the opportunity to just be able to put it out on the record now. So good to be able to welcome you here. You didn't have to answer any of that, but I just need you to come back to Alaska soon.

Sen. Lee (01:45:05):

Senator Hickenlooper.

Senator Hickenlooper (01:45:07):

I'm going to yield to the senior senator from California because he's got a thing on the floor he's got to do.

Sen. Lee (01:45:13):

Senator Padilla?

Senator Padilla (01:45:14):

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Governor, good to see you again. Appreciate the time in my office a few weeks back, and greetings to your wife, Catherine. We can't do the jobs that we do without the support and love of our spouses.

(01:45:25)
My time is limited, and not sure if we have a second round. There's a number of issues that I'm going to try to get to. If I don't, I'll be submitting questions for the records. Issues like tribal sovereignty that's come up before, and your thoughts on our trust and treaty obligations as a country. Public lands, we've had some recent progress and exciting announcements in California that we'd like to continue to build on and not go backwards on, try to get to some water system.

(01:45:51)
But let me begin with some of the more urgent questions and issues in California, Los Angeles, specifically, as you, as we've all seen, the devastation of recent fires in Southern California. As we speak here today, more than 40,000 acres burned, 12,000 structures-plus destroyed, more than two dozen people who have perished. That number's probably going to grow. It's clear it's been one of the most destructive natural disasters in Los Angeles history.

(01:46:25)
As governor, you had an experience, not at this scale, but in 2024, you requested a major disaster declaration to assist in the recovery from the historic wildfires that ravaged across Northwest North Dakota, and President Biden, as I understand, approved it quickly and without conditions. Is that correct?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:46:44):

Yes.

Senator Padilla (01:46:46):

So do you believe federal disaster aid should come with or without conditions?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:46:51):

Well, I think each situation would vary, but first of all, let me just say that I want to extend on behalf of Katherine and I, our empathy and sympathy to anybody that's lost their home, lost their lives, lost a loved one. We've got friends that have lived in the area that have lost their homes, homes they raised their kids in for 30 years, every piece of memorabilia and memory that they had gone, only getting out with a shirt on their back, and talking to those individuals directly.

(01:47:24)
And as it happens, our daughter was in LA for an event. The event was canceled. Katherine had flown out there, so both of them also had to evacuate as the fires were encroaching in that part of the city, so part of our family saw it firsthand.

(01:47:44)
And again, it's just urban wildfire is something that we as a country, we need to think. And I say each situation is different, because when you talked about it, North Dakota was largely rural, largely grasslands-

Senator Padilla (01:47:54):

And I'll get into that-

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:47:55):

… very different.

Senator Padilla (01:47:57):

… because you've experienced both, but please extend my offer to support, assist in any way any of my constituents that are friends or relatives of your family. For the record, there's never been strings attached to disaster relief, and I certainly hope this is not the first case.

(01:48:14)
So I would ask, as this plays out in Congress over the next several months, if you're fortunate enough to be confirmed as Interior Secretary, you wouldn't be the one deciding on whether or not to grant disaster declarations, but the department is significant, particularly when it comes to wildfire response. Would you commit to responding to every disaster with as much support and resources possible regardless of which state or jurisdiction the disaster is in?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:48:46):

Well, absolutely. But I would say I would go a step further, which is we've got to commit. Apparently, the fire in Maui wasn't big enough, in a sense. I mean, that was horrible. 100-plus lives lost, devastation that's there, but it didn't create a response nationally or at the federal level or a collaboration of states. But with this incredible, the largest-ever, and when the dollars come up, this could be the most expensive urban wildfire in the history of the country, it's probably a time for all of us together to say what could we be doing differently?

(01:49:20)
And I'm excited that Tim Sheehy is a new senator. He's the first that I know of who's actually worked as a professional firefighter on wildfire. I know that he and others are willing to work across the aisle to come up with solutions because-

Senator Padilla (01:49:37):

And Senator Sheehy and I are already working on some proposals on a bipartisan basis to improve the federal government's ability to help in situations like these.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:49:46):

And if I could, Senator, I would say we also have to look, it goes back to actually the grid, because a wildfire, whether it's in North Dakota or California, you need three things. You need oxygen, you need fuel load, and you need a spark. And in both cases, in North Dakota and in whatever, when you have high winds, those sparks can come from above-ground power lines coming in contact with vegetation. And so we have to think about the grid and bearing power-

Senator Padilla (01:50:11):

I love that you have that appreciation and knowledge, and unfortunately, the experience, because the red flag conditions is something new to people across the country, but nothing new for those of us in the very dry West. My time is running quickly, I want to get at least one other issue in on the record.

(01:50:28)
Last session, I began another bipartisan effort with Senator Daines to permanently protect the pay increases for federal firefighters that Congress had previously approved. Side note, there's currently about 1000 brave federal firefighters that are part of the tremendous response. It's not just locals, it's not state firefighters, but through mutual aid, a number of jurisdictions there, including federal firefighters.

(01:50:55)
If confirmed, are you committed to supporting wildland firefighters? Because the recruitment and retention challenges, a number of reasons, but compensation has certainly been one of them.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:51:08):

Well, it's a dangerous and very hard job, but it's an essential job. And I know, again, from my own recent experience, this was just October, early first week of October, we lost two lives in North Dakota as part of these raging wildfires that were tearing across the prairie.

(01:51:25)
I had a chance immediately after that to meet with local volunteers and local firefighter units and our small state fire front team, our national guard that was out, and including just a lot of citizens that jumped in as they did in California to try to save their own homes. I think we all have got a greater appreciation for that role.

(01:51:45)
I think we need to have a better, more sophisticated response than we have right now, because again, this is a thing we need to recognize that there's rural firefighting and then there's urban. And I think the LA example shows us that there's things that we have to do differently going forward.

Senator Padilla (01:52:05):

Thank you. And just in closing, a number of issues that we'll follow up with questions for the record, unless we do get a second round. But a note, not a question, and a nod to Senator Hickenlooper who allowed me to jump the line here, we're going to need your engagement on Colorado River, some important negotiations that need to stay consensus-driven in the years ahead.

(01:52:27)
And a recognition, again, tapping your experience as governor, that we need federal and state agencies working collaboratively to tackle resource issues, especially water. In California, we have both the Central Valley Project, which is a federal system, the State Water Project with the state system, that are truly interconnected.

(01:52:49)
And so I introduce that to you and look forward to working with you on the water management challenges that we'll have to address together going forward, particularly given the federal biological opinions that have been carefully crafted and need to be maintained. Thank you for your time.

Sen. Lee (01:53:08):

Senator Cassidy.

Senator Cassidy (01:53:09):

Hey, Governor Burgum, thanks for doing the job, man. We appreciate it. We both come from oil and gas-producing states. One of my top priorities has been to use federal state revenue sharing on oil and gas lands to help rebuild Louisiana's coastline. During the time of this hearing, we will have lost several football fields worth of Louisiana coastline, which of course makes us more vulnerable to a hurricane hitting our coast.

(01:53:40)
And last Congress, I'm pleased to say, that the RISE Act, which did that, passed by voice vote out of this committee, so I'm hoping we do that again. Can you briefly speak to the importance of revenue sharing to North Dakota, knowing that on federal lands in North Dakota, there's revenue that comes back to help mitigate whatever negative impact that drilling may have?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:54:00):

Well, yes, absolutely. And the federal revenue goes two ways. I mean, at least we've got it coming back, a portion of it back, to the state, but then a portion of it goes back to the Federal Treasury.

(01:54:13)
And the Federal Treasury, as we know, we've talked earlier about the debt that we have. Responsible, sustainable, smart development, whether it's onshore or offshore, is of great benefit to conservation, in your case, a coastline, but it also can help pay for other things. In our state, the revenues that are coming in are helping pay for education, healthcare, roads. It touches every-

Senator Cassidy (01:54:37):

If you will, it's kind of a middle class, if you will, and lower economic class benefit program because those things are touching services directly, aside from the jobs being created directly impacting the quality of their life.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:54:52):

Absolutely. And then when done effectively and appropriately, it also lowers the burden of sales tax and property tax and income tax on those same-

Senator Cassidy (01:55:02):

So let me ask-

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:55:02):

… hard-working individuals.

Senator Cassidy (01:55:03):

It's music to my ears. I will say, when I speak to the folks that actually do these big developments, one fellow said, "It used to be when they had a lease sale, I could plan a fishing trip with my son at the same time because it was so regular." It was going to be on this day, at this time, it happened to be a New Orleans, so they had a great meal.

(01:55:20)
So I wanted to say that, that now there's been dilatory practices that have been instituted, not for the sake of anything other than dilatory and to increase the cost of development to hopefully thwart that development. Can I get a commitment from you, as much as you can possibly do it, that when we have lease sales now, they will be as they're scheduled to have lease sales, and so the people making these decisions will have certainty as to them?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:55:45):

As someone who is participating in a lawsuit suing the federal government to try to get them to hold the lease sales when they were supposed to be held by law, you can count that as Head of Interior, we will be following the law when it comes to lease sale time.

Senator Cassidy (01:56:00):

And I think the operative statement is you'll be following the law, and that's a good thing.

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:56:04):

Yes.

Senator Cassidy (01:56:04):

Now, on that, we know that on some federal lands, from before modern environmental standards, there are abandoned oil and gas wells, and those tend to leak methane, for example.

(01:56:15)
I'm very interested in working on a bipartisan basis, bicameral basis, of how we can actually have a federal program which sustainably is paying to cap these abandoned oil and gas wells, and Louisiana has about 1500 of them. Any thoughts about that, because I'm sure in North Dakota that you had to address this issue too?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:56:35):

Well, in North Dakota, we took part of the revenues that were coming into the state from the oil and gas tax revenues, and we created a abandoned wealth reclamation fund, and that's been replenished, and then that goes back in to do that, but we've also made sure that the private sector is doing their share. And-

Senator Cassidy (01:56:52):

Now, let me ask, because one thing I hear from the private sector is the issue of liability protection. Will they be sued to bejesus out of if something goes bad about this remediation of the abandoned oil and gas well?

(01:57:08)
And I ask this, I don't know the answer to it. We're trying to explore that. There is the abandoned mine provisions that we're looking at. How did y'all manage that in North Dakota?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:57:17):

Well, we always were looking for incentives to make sure that the private sector was willing to participate as opposed to afraid to participate, and you're describing this thing where if you get unlimited liability, then they want to run the other way and lawyer up and do that, as opposed to, hey, if you got the appropriate bond levels that are economic, they pay those upfront. We exhaust those if they've got other payments that they need to do.

(01:57:44)
We've just been able to work collaboratively in a way to make sure that private sector is doing their share when we're doing this. And part of it, their share is because if they weren't investing in creating the well, putting in the people, doing the development, taking the risk on the front end, we wouldn't have the revenue to split up on the back end.

Senator Cassidy (01:58:03):

So we're going to look at what y'all did in North Dakota as we draft our legislation. One more thing knowing that you'll be in charge of this as I gather this kind of how-do-we-do energy sort of thing.

(01:58:12)
One thing that I've been concerned about is that countries like China do not enforce international standards on controlling pollution. That lowers their cost of manufacturing as much as 20%, incentivizing manufacturers to leave our country and move there. But then we get the loss of the jobs, but also all the air pollution that then blows over to our west coast. I think I read 20% of the SOx in California is related to emissions from China.

(01:58:40)
Now, one thing I've been proposing, Senator Graham as my cosponsor, is a farm pollution fee, that would put a fee on certain products from a country like China roughly equal to their avoided cost of not complying with environmental regulations. As the president speaks about tariffs, this would be a tariff that would be thoroughly defensible as we address something the economists call externalities. I slept in a Holiday Inn last night. I know that word.

(01:59:06)
So I go through that knowing that you in your position will be making sure that our industry is competitive in terms of controlling our emissions in accordance with the law, which then gives us that advantage relative to those competitors arbitraging those rules. Any quick comment on that, because the chair is being generous and allowing a little extra time?

Gov. Doug Burgum (01:59:26):

Well, I think you're spot-on to recognize President Trump who has a willingness to use tariffs. His principle is reciprocity. If you have access to our markets, and we don't have access to yours, or if you're using unfair practices, if you're dumping in here, in this case, if they're not doing reclamation, they're using child labor, they're doing all the things that lower their cost, that's exactly the kind of place that he has publicly spoken about that he would want to have reciprocity with tariffs.

Senator Cassidy (01:59:54):

Thank you very much.

Sen. Lee (01:59:57):

Senator Hickenlooper.

Senator Hickenlooper (01:59:59):

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, governor, for being here. Appreciate this. It's always good to have other governors in the room, or former governors, I guess, at this point. I've got three questions, so I'm going to be pretty quick in the questions, and I try to be unfailingly polite, but if I override you, it's just because I want to get to all three questions.

(02:00:15)
Obviously, I worked on methane regulations back when I was governor. We were the first state or province anywhere in the world to actually regulate methane, but we did it by working with the industry. They came and helped create the regulations that were going to guide them. Senator Cassidy was just talking about abandoned wells. It's all part of that same problem.

(02:00:34)
As Secretary of the Interior, how do you think you can use your authority to advance rules that boost innovation in the energy sector? Let's reduce methane is one thing, but I'll broaden the question and say, and getting to better, cleaner energy, that's at the same time reliable and a low cost?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:00:54):

Well, I should say mayor, governor, Senator, I love this question, because the focus on innovation, we've seen in North Dakota, again, the federal regulation comes in, it's proposed, it goes through the rule-changing. It takes years to finally get it finalized, then it gets finalized, and then all of a sudden, you got a federal employee ain a white pickup with a clipboard driving around, that the taxpayers are paying for, trying to find out if we've got an emission here, emission there.

(02:01:22)
Meanwhile, if that's six to eight years from the beginning of a problem to when the rule gets finalized and is actually enforced, we've gone through four or five cycles of wars-

Senator Hickenlooper (02:01:32):

So but get to the innovation, because I've got-

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:01:33):

Yeah. We've gone through four or five-

Senator Hickenlooper (02:01:34):

… two more questions.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:01:34):

… cycles of Bohr's law, and then someone's got a solution to say, "We can do methane capture at the well, we can do it cheaply. We can do it this." They implement it, they can capture it, they can turn it into electricity, they can do power generation for a data center on the site and on a well site.

(02:01:50)
I mean, the amount of innovation that is occurring right now in the energy industry is unbelievable. It's as exciting as anything in tech that's going on. And so that's why I say innovation over regulation. We could solve these problems cheaper, faster, and quicker than we can through expensive and outdated regulations.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:02:06):

Yeah. We've never needed more innovation in a short time than we need in energy right now. As the energies are, on the other side, there've been a lot of reports about tariffs on critical minerals, possibly on everything. I mean, a lot of people are saying a lot of different things.

(02:02:21)
So in terms of imposing tariffs without having a clear strategy on how we're going to secure the supply chains for these critical minerals essential to our defense, to our aerospace industry, go down the list, what's your plan to collaborate with our allies to make sure that we can ensure a reliable supply chain on these critical minerals?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:02:41):

Well, I think the key there is allies because we have to have our security network of people that are truly our allies, and we have to be able to buy and sell from each other around these critical minerals.

(02:02:54)
But right now, we've been over the last 20 years, I mean, we were, as a nation, one of the great mining economies in the world 20 years ago. It's become a dirty word. You can hardly find a kid in college that wants to go into geology or geologic or mining.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:03:09):

You're hurting me.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:03:10):

Well, you were there. You-

Senator Hickenlooper (02:03:13):

I am a geologist, so.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:03:14):

Yes, you are.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:03:14):

Or I was.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:03:15):

But you understand in your profession how that has shifted in your lifetime, and we've got to bring it back because this is critical to our nation's future. And again, when we can do it here with innovation, better, cleaner, and safer than the world, we're actually helping the world environment-

Senator Hickenlooper (02:03:29):

Exactly.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:03:29):

… when we do it in the United States.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:03:31):

We could set those standards, and I agree completely that we are the ones who are going to create a better way to extract minerals with less pollution and less risk.

(02:03:42)
Last question. Obviously, public land's a key part of Colorado, just like they are of North Dakota. I commend you. I think what you did as a governor, you took a lot of what we did and did it better. It's very frustrating, but we governors like to give credit where credit is due. We have certain places in Colorado, and we

Senator Hickenlooper (02:04:00):

We discussed this when you were in my office last week, and I appreciate you taking the time with all that you've got going on to come and spend an hour with us. We have some places where local governments, the local community, the ranchers, have joined arms side by side to protect lands. We have one part of land, one piece of land there that's called the Thompson Divide. And it's been somewhat controversial. There's one mining or oil company that felt that there was potential there. I took a pretty deep look at the seismic and couldn't see much source there, much potential, but it's been controversial. I wanted to make sure to extend the invitation that you come to Colorado, which I'm sure everyone up here is, even if they haven't said it, they look forward to it. But to come walk that landscape with some of the local ranchers and farmers there, so you can get a sense that this isn't a partisan issue, this is a piece of land that pretty much everyone in the community has decided needs to be protected.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:04:57):

Well, I appreciate the invitation. I would look forward to it. Senator.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:05:00):

Great. Thank you. You have the floor. Senator Rich.

Senator Rich (02:05:06):

Governor, welcome. Can't tell you how glad I am to see another governor for this position, and particularly coming from west of the Mississippi. If you look at this committee, it's the former governor's club. There's a lot of us on here and we have meetings from time to time. Hoeven takes up most of the time trying to convince us there's a Z in bison and we can't find it.

(02:05:29)
So in any event, thank you for doing this, and because of the fact that most of our Western states have so much federal land, it's really important we have somebody that understands those issues, so thank you for that and thank you for the job. They've already had a discussion with you about grizzly bears. We don't want grizzly bears. They kill people. The federal government already gave us wolves. We had them all killed off about 75 years ago, and then some yehoo back here decided we needed them again. They brought them in and brought us 30 wolves, and said when we were 203 breeding pairs, we could delist them. Well, by the time I became governor, there were at least 1,500 wolves, nobody knows how many breeding pairs, and we couldn't get them delisted until I got back here. We finally were able to put together a coalition and got them delisted.

(02:06:23)
Grizzly bears are so far over the top because they kill people. They really do kill people and they just don't mesh with society. So in any event, we'll look forward to working with you on those issues. Probably one of the most important decisions you're going to make here in the immediate future is I know how the transition team is working, and you and the transition team's going to have to pick a BLM director, and that's really important to us because all of us have it that are Western states have a tremendous amount of BLM land.

(02:06:57)
We had a real problem with this one. Fortunately, she's only got about 95 hours left. She was an eco-terrorist. She engaged in the work that was done in Idaho of spiking trees. You probably know about spiking trees. Since she's been BLM director, we haven't seen her. She's been up here I think once in the four years and it divided this committee deeply. We had a huge fight over it. It was a straight party line vote. She got confirmed. We don't want somebody like that, running the BLM, particularly somebody we can't find. So I urge you to use your best decision-making ability when you choose that person.

(02:07:37)
On another important issue, the issue for us in Idaho right now is the Lava Ridge Windmill Project, and my good friend Senator King and I have different views on windmill,s and bless you for taking the windmills. You can have them all. We don't want them in Idaho. We hate windmills in Idaho. They are a tremendous blight on our viewscape. We really don't like them. And the new green deal that this administration has put together is trying to saddle us with 100,000 acres, 100,000 acres with 241 windmills on them that are a little higher than the space needle.

(02:08:20)
And the good news is I appreciate you meeting with me and listening to how wrong this project is on so many different levels. The good news is, and you don't know this yet, I don't think, but that project's only got about 95 hours left to be on the table. That's going to go by the bye, and believe me in Idaho, this is a 99 to 1% issue and we're going to be so glad to see it gone, and it will be gone and you're not going to have to worry about it anymore after that.

(02:08:55)
Let me just close with this. I'm so glad to hear that the president is going to put you in a position he is on energy. That's incredible. We need it. We all know his vision for making America independent and actually being an exporter and tapping our wealth. One word we haven't used here in that regard is nuclear. Idaho was the birthplace of nuclear energy in the universe. We've still got the first light bulbs we lit in 1951 by generating nuclear energy. We've built about 52 reactors out there at the site. I don't know if you've been to the Idaho National Lab or not, but if you're going to be in the energy business, you really need to. There's a tremendous, tremendous resurgence of interest in nuclear.

(02:09:44)
The thing went by the way after we had the unfortunate Three Mile Island incident. But the renaissance in nuclear, not just in America, but around the world is staggering. Coming off drawing boards at INL and in the very near future, our SMR small modular reactors, it's going to be followed by the micro-reactors, that is going to change the world as far as energy is concerned. And I'm glad to hear you talk about baseload, because when you're talking about nuclear, you're talking about baseload. And I suspect the world as we go through this century is going to rely heavily on nuclear.

(02:10:20)
There's tremendous, as in my other hat I wear as chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, I deal with countries, particularly the Eastern European countries, they're entering contracts and it is a national security issue because we compete with China, with Russia, and to a degree France when these new projects are coming on board. So thank you for what you're doing. God bless you. We welcome you.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:10:49):

Senator Gallego.

Senator Gallego (02:10:52):

Thank you, Governor. Thanks again for joining me. Thank you for sitting down in my office, and appreciate our time together. We was hit upon this, but one of the biggest interior-related issues is going to be the Colorado River. Arizona is at the heart of our national defense when it comes to shipmaking, agriculture and food security, and of course home to the fifth largest and best city in the country. In addition, 22 of the 30 Colorado River Basin tribes are in Arizona. So rules governing the reductions of the Colorado River water expire at the end of 2026 and post-2026 operation conversations are still ongoing. The lower Basin states have put forth a proposal for management of the Colorado River that shares the risk among all states. However, no agreement has been reached and leading to potential conflicts within the basin, which of course we'd all like to avoid. Would you work with Arizona parties and my office so that any termination post-2026 is not overly burdensome to any one state and is consistent with the Colorado River Compact?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:11:59):

Well, Senator, you bring up a really important issue, and this is with the 2026 date looming coming forward. And of course, as you know, Interior does have some specific authorities relative to helping with the lower and upper Basin. I would say as a former chair of Western Governors, I know that this has been a battle that's going on as long as there've been people in the west. People are fighting over water in the west.

(02:12:24)
My experience in North Dakota has been more on the Missouri River Basin, but also we've been in some deep battles with Canada because we've got two rivers that are in North Dakota that actually flow north into Canada, the Suras River and the Red River or the North. So whether it's international or the complexities, the Missouri, I've got some good understanding and good exposure to this. But I think you can count on that we're going to look for a collaborative solution that serves everyone. It's also we're going to have to look for innovation on ways on the conservation side, because we can't make more water, but if we can use what we have wisely, that's going to look for the best solutions for all. But I appreciate that you're engaged in this. I know how important it is to Arizona and its economy.

Senator Gallego (02:13:08):

Thanks, governor. In our meeting we also discussed a lot about our tribal communities and tribal nations. I'm very glad you have good background and understanding and relationships with them. And we talked a lot about tribal law enforcement, some of the bills that I've put forward to increase tribal law enforcement, but unfortunately we see just a high rates of missing and murdered women as well as other violent crimes, a lot of these really due to lack of tribal law enforcement and communications with our agencies that are supposed to be have oversight and collaboration. I've worked through my time in Congress to try and increase the funding for tribal law enforcement, but our federal budget cuts really put all that work at risk. So can you tell me or think about what is your plan to work collaboratively with Congress and tribes across the country on tribal law enforcement and proven efforts, and how do you plan to ensure that we can do this in a bipartisan manner?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:14:02):

Well, I think there's nothing partisan about enforcing the law and protecting the citizens of the United States. And one of the great tragedies in our country is the lack of law enforcement on tribal lands, and the fact that we've got organized crime that is preying on the gaps. They're aware that the gaps are there, and whether it's the training center, Senator Hoeven has been particularly supportive along with Senator Kramer. We don't have enough training centers across the nation for the northern tribes or the southern tribes. So we need more recruiting. We need more staffing. We need lots of other things that are going on.

(02:14:39)
But we also, you mentioned the first time it's come up, but the missing and murdered indigenous women, I mean, this is, again, an unseen tragedy in America. I think the FBI list is now over 6,000 unsolved cases. And I believe, again, that it is a complete tragedy. It seems if we lose a college student at Spring Break, it's the Netflix series and the whole nation knows her name personally. And then we have these same individual tragedies that happen over and over again in Indian country, and people aren't even aware that it's going on. So we've got to change our entire approach to this.

Senator Gallego (02:15:15):

And unfortunately, in the last four years, and thank you again, for that, and look forward to working with you on that, and I had a lot of sense of history on the house side on this. In the last four years, we've learned from reclamation that Glen Canyon Dam has some design flaws that limits its ability to pass water at lower elevations, which means we have to fix that dam and pretty soon, because we need the ability to essentially pass water around the dam, if we actually obviously can't go through it, especially if the hydrology in the region gets worse. How would you make fixing the dam that delivers water to the Grand Canyon and the 30 million people downstream from that lower basin, and of course Mexico's part of our treaty obligations, a priority?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:15:56):

Well, Senator, appreciate you bringing that to my attention. This is one issue I was not aware of about the Glen Canyon Dam deficiencies, but obviously with the Bureau of Reclamation being the second-largest operator of hydroelectric dams in the country behind the Army Corps of Engineers, I'll quickly be meeting with the team if I have the privilege of being confirmed for this position about this issue, because we've got to have working facilities on these critical rivers. And as we know, we've got to have more reservoir capability because part of the issue we're facing is that perhaps we not only need to fix, we've got to upgrade some of these so that we can have more storage.

Senator Gallego (02:16:36):

Yep. I'd love to work with that person. Thank you. Thank you, governor. Yield back.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:16:39):

Senator Hyde-Smith.

Senator Maria Cantwell (02:16:42):

Thank you Mr. Chairman, and I think you guys will be very happy that I'm probably the last one and this will soon be over. But I just certainly appreciate your willingness and your eagerness. I enjoyed the visit we had in my office and the sincerity that you have, but most of all your capabilities. You're so capable for this position and I'm very thankful to you and your family that you're willing to do this. I am going to be brief, but one of the things we talked about in my office was a local Mississippi thing. William Faulkner once said, "To understand the rest of the world, you first must understand a place like Mississippi."

(02:17:23)
But we're very blessed with the National Park Services that we have several sites in Mississippi that certainly contribute to our tourism, the economy of our state, and we work with them very closely with public-private partnerships, and Vicksburg now, we are working on a center with the state of Mississippi, public-private partnerships and Vicksburg National Military Park's friends of the park, so we certainly want to make sure that that continues. And Natchez, the state is enhancing two state-owned historical sites to better complement the Natchez National Historic Park sites. So of course, I'd want to invite you to visit those and asking for your willingness to commit to me working on these two particular projects in Vicksburg and Natchez.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:18:15):

Well, as senator, thank you. And first of all, I just want to thank you too for your capabilities. It's great to have a senator who grew up in agriculture and also was ag commissioner. That's fantastic. I spent most of my life, my family was all involved in agriculture my entire life and many of my cousins still are, so it's such an important part of our national security as well. But in terms of the national park thing, as we said earlier, we've got a big deferred maintenance issue and we have a big opportunity. These are the precious spots out of the billions of acres of surface subsurface offshore that we own. The National Park is for Americans as a priority and we need to take care of these sites, whether historic or others. And again, we have to make sure that they're capable of handling and supporting the visitors that want to see them. We know they're great for the local economy. So we appreciate the invitation and look forward to working with you.

Senator Maria Cantwell (02:19:10):

Thank you on that. Now, I'm going to go to South Mississippi, our offshore oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico. Of course, it plays a vital role in the Gulf States economies as well. We call it our blue economy down there. The anchor platform, it's recently come online with the Gulf of Mexico, but it will produce 75,000 barrels of oil per day. And this oil is refined in Pascagoula, Mississippi, and obviously the jobs that it provides there and the benefits that we have. But it is important that the department maintain a steady leasing schedule to ensure companies can continue the opportunities there for exploration for new production to support the affordable reliable energy. So the current national outer continental shelf oil and gas leasing plan or the five-year plan includes only three possible lease sales, a historic low. Do you believe the current five-year plan is adequate to continue to meet the energy needs of the nation? And if not, will it be a priority for Interior to develop our finalize a new five-year plan?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:20:23):

Well, Senator, I think that you know the long lead times it takes for the private sector to make the significant investments to do safe, secure, and smart, sophisticated offshore development. It's a really important part of our nation's economy and our national security. The fact that during the current administration, the lease sales have been so unpredictable and disruptive, and the fact that they're projecting forward to have among the fewest we've ever had, almost would guarantee that we would see a decline in energy production in offshore in the years ahead because of the lead times. And knowing that we are in a national security battle and the way that we ensure America's future is that we've got energy dominance. This is opposed to the President's direction.

(02:21:15)
I mean, the President would be saying, "We've got to be doing more smart development, not less." And as I stated earlier with one of the questions in North Dakota, we literally were suing the federal government because they were not holding the lawfully required lease sales. So getting lease sales to be regular, predictable and at a level that allows us to maintain energy production in our country is a minimum standard for us.

Senator Maria Cantwell (02:21:40):

Thank you for those answers, and I cannot tell you how glad we are to have you. Thank you.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:21:46):

Thank you, Senator.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:21:48):

Senator Wyden.

Senator Wyden (02:21:49):

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And let me say I very much look forward to working with you and Senator Heinrich. We've always worked on these issues in a bipartisan way and I look forward to doing it again. Mr, Burgum, I think from our visit in the office, how strongly I feel about these clean energy tax credits. I wrote this package, $400 billion or so, the biggest investment in fighting climate change in American history. It uses carrots, not sticks. The more you reduce carbon, the bigger your tax savings. It's private sector driven and in what I consider to be a huge breakthrough.

(02:22:34)
We reward technological neutrality. The reason that's so important, as you and I talked about, is nobody knows what the big carbon reducers are going to be 30 years from now. And so, the reason I insisted on that provision is it creates what I call an innovation lane. It's an opportunity to send a message to people about every possible type of energy use that you're going to have a chance if you innovate to be part of a very bright future. Now, I heard something, and I'm just counting on you to deny it, that maybe you weren't as interested in this as I thought you were in the office. So you seem kind of skeptical in some of the earlier discussion. And I just hope, because you're going to be very influential in the whole administration on energy, that we can work together on this, as I believe we'll work together on a variety of other issues as well. Your thoughts?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:23:43):

Well, Senator, I really enjoyed our discussion and the time and the extra time we spent together. And as I said then, and restate now that I think your principles are really sound about being technology neutral, about having carrots versus sticks, and also about having private sector versus just all government.

Senator Wyden (02:24:06):

I ought to quit while I'm ahead.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:24:07):

Yeah, well, that was all… I mean, it's all good stuff. I don't know specifically other comments you may have heard or think, but I believe that these things may have been so successful as it relates to the electrical grid that we have got now a significant imbalance in the amount of projects that are intermittent and not persistent. And we need to make sure for our country to be successful in the near term, that we've got to get back to making sure that we've got the appropriate amount of base load to manage both of those things. Because if the sun's not shining, the wind's not blowing and we don't have base load, then we got brownouts and blackouts. We got higher electric prices for American. So it's the balance of trying to achieve that.

(02:24:51)
And then the other point that I may have said today, which I would stand by, is that it's great that people thought, "Hey, let's put massive incentives around EVs, around electric vehicles against fueled cars that have liquid fuels." But in America, if there's innovation neutrality, in North Dakota, we're producing carbon negative barrel of oil, we're producing carbon-neutral of biofuels. I mean, America built 200,000 gas stations without a dime of public money or taxpayer incentives because the market created that, and we have got an opportunity to have innovation in an innovation lane around decarbonizing liquid fuels. So we just have to make sure we have the balance, because we need it all. We need it all to win the competition. We're going to win.

Senator Wyden (02:25:38):

Well, first of all, on the electric front, I'm very much of your view there. I mean, we have had big challenges in our part of the world. There's a transmission issue. The two pieces that are really left out is how to deal with electric and how to promote transmission. I'm very interested in working with you. I'm going to take, as I run back to the finance committee where we're talking about these issues, the view that you're open to continue working in this space rather than coming on in and just saying we're going to chuck it in the trash can.

(02:26:09)
Because I'm always interested in improving on something. I mean, the founding fathers said that a new Congress is never bound by absolutely everything from a past Congress. So I'm interested in improving it, but I'm going to take out of our discussion that you're open to working with me and others in a bipartisan way. At one point, this was a purely bipartisan effort. We can talk about what happened, because I thought it was a question of who is going to get the credit, but I'm going to take out of here that you'll work with me.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:26:41):

Yeah, you can count on that, that I will. And you can also count on that. I'm going to be anchored in two things. One is national security, so we shouldn't have incentives that enslave us to getting all of our critical minerals from a major power competitor like China. And then the other thing is you can count on is that I'm going to be focused on the economy and affordability, because if we can do something for $60 a ton versus $900 a ton, I'm going to choose the $60 a ton of avoided CO2.

Senator Wyden (02:27:10):

My time is out, but I'm going to say the idea of linking a lower carbon future with lower prices and the focus on national security is a triangle with three sides that I can support and I'd like to work with you on it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:27:28):

Thank you, Senator.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:27:29):

Senator Barrasso.

Senator Angus King (02:27:30):

Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. Governor, congratulations. Great to be with you again. Thanks for our time together. As you know, the federal government controls hundreds of millions of acres of land in the west, you'd like to look at this committee in our home states, and the well-being certainly in my home state of Wyoming depends on strong leadership at the Department of Interior. The department must work with states and local communities to manage our resources in a way that works for the people that actually live on the land. And over the last four years, that has been a big problem, as we've seen in administration that seem to just be punishing the west. The will of the people who depend on the land, live on the land, take care of the land was ignored the last four years.

(02:28:08)
So governor, there's a long list of things that I believe must be fixed, and I'm going to ask for your help. Number one, Rock Springs, Wyoming, the RMP that stands for the resource management plan, as you and I know, and those who are watching will know about now. The Bureau of Land Management finalized that just last month, December 2024. They did it not even a week after the governor of Wyoming submitted his appeal to the proposed plan, but they rushed out the door with this. This final plan is going to devastate the people of southwest Wyoming. It's going to lock up millions of acres of land that local communities and the entire state relies upon the governor, our state legislature, the county commissioners, the local communities, all strongly oppose what the federal government is slamming down our throat. So will you commit to work with my office and the state to undo this disastrous plan?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:28:58):

Senator, I'm familiar having been governor until December 15th, because we had a similar experience in North Dakota of having plans like this pushed on the state of North Dakota. So yeah, absolutely. You can count on me working with you.

Senator Angus King (02:29:13):

Great. In Wyoming, about two thirds of our minerals under the land are owned by the federal government, about half the surface land and two thirds of the minerals under the land. That means that energy development in my state depends on cooperation from the Department of Interior. Wyoming's legislative leaders would benefit from meeting with you directly as they plan the state's energy future, and I'd ask you to commit to joining our Wyoming delegation as well as Wyoming stakeholders to talk about the future.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:29:40):

I would enjoy that very much, and I've enjoyed the relationship I had with Governor Matt Meade and now Governor Mark Gordon that we've been on regular communication, because there's been a lot of shared challenges between Wyoming and North Dakota.

Senator Angus King (02:29:53):

And both of those, current governor, former governor speak with you with great appreciation, great admiration, and great respect, so look forward to that. Buffalo, Wyoming. Last year, the outgoing administration finalized a resource management plan for Buffalo, the Buffalo Wyoming field office, this plan would ban new coal leasing in the Powder River Basin, which is the most energy rich area in the country. We are America's energy breadbasket in Wyoming. This short-sighted decision is an insult to our communities and harmful for American energy security. If confirmed, would you work with me to reverse this plan?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:30:27):

Absolutely. And I also know that when we talk about critical minerals, that in that Powder River coal include many of the critical minerals that we need for defense, for technology, and for the future of this country. And so, rather than this blanket approach of trying to block that type of energy development, we need to be thinking about how innovation can help us solve multiple problems at once.

Senator Angus King (02:30:52):

I want to move now to oil and gas leases. Outgoing administration has a disgraceful record on oil and gas management. It blocked our production just about every turn. It hasn't issued leases for a lease sale held over four years ago, and they still haven't issued the leases, and it deferred over 600,000 acres from leasing in Wyoming that were previously cleared for oil and gas production. If confirmed, will you work to quickly issue those leases and offer additional acres for leasing?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:31:23):

Absolutely. And Senator, as I've stated before, North Dakota's faced the same, what I view is absolutely, there's a case in federal court, which I'm positive the ruling is going to be that the current administration, the Biden administration, did not follow the law relative to holding required lease sales.

Senator Angus King (02:31:39):

The next area is sage grouse. Wyoming is the home to a large population of greater sage grouse and its habitat. For over 15 years, Wyoming has been at the forefront of adopting new management approaches to protect the species. Our state has led successful efforts to balance conservation with economic development. Again, the Biden administration proposed to designate over 600,000 acres in Wyoming as, quote, "Areas of critical environmental concern." That's going to lock up thousands of acres in Wyoming halting production and development across the state. Would you be willing to reopen the department's greater sage grouse management?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:32:16):

I've been advised that the rule of decision came out this morning. I don't want to put myself into making a forward statement that I would have to recuse, but I would just say for my time as Chairman of Western Governors, I'm familiar with the use of designations to try to restrict energy development, even when you might have a species like the sage grouse that's neither on the endangered or the threatened list.

Senator Angus King (02:32:41):

I'll ask one final question, and you've done quite a bit on the grizzly bear already, so let me talk about federal grazing. The Department of Interior is critical in its role for managing federal lands across the west. Almost half of the land in Wyoming owned by the federal government, land managed under multiple use is required by law to be managed without impairment of the productivity of the land. These are public places that people from Wyoming depend on accessing for their livelihoods, agriculture, all the ranching activities, recreation, mineral development. Congress directed grazing, timber harvesting, recreation energy and mineral production to take place on federal lands. Will you support the multiple use mandate, the law mandates for federal land?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:33:26):

Absolutely, I do, Senator, and since we've talked about wildfires today, grazing reduces fuel load, timber management appropriately reduces fuel load. Surface development can create roads paid for by the private that support our firefighters. All of the multiple use is a part of a component of a comprehensive rethinking of how we think about fire management on federal lands.

Senator Angus King (02:33:50):

Thank you, governor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:33:51):

Senator Cotton.

Senator Cotton (02:33:52):

Governor, welcome and congratulations. We've reached the regrettable point that we often do in the Senate where almost everything has been said, but not everyone has said it. I will refrain from saying a lot of what's gone before me, but I will say for the record that I want to associate myself with the comments of my Republican colleagues about the need for significantly increasing energy production while also being responsible stewards of our public lands and waters. There is, however, one issue I don't think has been discussed yet under the Endangered Species Act, and I think it's a scandal of the first order. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention as of late.

(02:34:30)
On January 3rd, the New York Times published a story about the so-called snail darter. It was a species that was designated as endangered by fish and wildlife back in the 1970s. The entire thrust of the story is that a zoologist basically made up this species of snail darter, all for the point of halting construction of the Teleco Dam on the little Tennessee River. After many years of delay, it finally took an act of Congress to build that dam.

Senator Cotton (02:35:01):

A academic side in that article, said that this is a not uncommon practice, creating new species, when there's really no difference between other extant, non-endangered species, for what he called "The downstream conservative conservation implications." Which is to say, activists creating species, calling them endangered to stop the construction of a dam, or a power generation plant, or a housing development. And again, this is something that was admitted publicly, in the New York Times, by some of these activists. That's why I say I think it's a scandal of the first order. Could I get your commitment, in light of these admissions, to go back and reexamine Endangered Species Act listings, and identify any other potential false designations?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:35:50):

Senator Cotton, you raise a very important issue, which is the weaponization of federal rules meant to actually protect wildlife, but to do it in a way where it's being used not to protect wildlife, but it's being used to stop legal activities, like the multiple-use scenario we were just talking about with Senator Barrasso. Again, it's just a legal weapon, and it's used for fundraising, it's used for groups that are just trying to block our nation's progress, and so I agree with you completely. And you mentioned the New York Times, if that article was someplace else, but the fact that the New York Times wrote that article, I found also to be remarkable admission of at least one case where there was the abuse of the Endangered Species Act relative to its intended use. So yes, you can count, absolutely-

Senator Cotton (02:36:44):

Thank you. I appreciate that, because also, I think, not in light just to this public admission, but also the West Virginia case, and the Loper Bright case, there could be legal infirmity in a lot of our federal bureaucracy's past decisions, so I appreciate your willingness to take a look at that once you're on the job. Thank you very much.

Sen. Lee (02:37:04):

That concludes round one. We're going to do a quick round two with some follow-ups that a few members have asked. I want to talk to you briefly about the fact that public lands represent a massive public asset, and yet a lack of an accurate valuation is something that we don't have, and that undermines informed decision-making about their use and their management. What steps would you take if confirmed as Secretary, to improve the transparency in this area, and ensure federal land valuations reflect their value to the American people?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:37:40):

Well, I would just say on this idea that, what I'll call America's balance sheet, is something that the Trump administration has quite a bit of enthusiasm. In discussions with the Treasury nominee, Scott Bessent, Commerce nominee, Howard Lutnick, and even Speaker Mike Johnson called me a few weeks ago, and said, "Hey, what's this American balance sheet idea?" I mean, I think for our standing in the world, for us to talk nonstop about what our liabilities are, we should also be fluent, just as any business would be, to be able to talk about what our assets. And the assets of this country, I think outpace any place in the world because of the care that we've given, in particular to the public lands, the surface, the subsurface, and the offshore. And we've proven time and time again, that we can do it better, cleaner, and safer than anyone else here.

(02:38:35)
If I'm a timber company, and I own timber land, and it's not been harvested, I put that on my balance sheet. If I've got timber land, and I've planted young trees, I put it on my balance sheet at a different valuation. When we protect US lands, and then don't cut a tree, and then they burn down, we not only produce enormous amounts of emissions and enormous amounts of carbon, but we also effectively wasted the public's asset. And I think it's part of our duty, in the role, if I have the privilege of being nominated here, but all of us, as elected officials, to make sure that we're getting a return on the nation's balance sheet, for the benefit and the use of the American people.

(02:39:16)
So understanding that number, I think, is key. I would just say one last thing. People say, "Oh, it's going to be really hard. It's really hard to develop it." We did this in North Dakota. When I took office, they said, "Well, we have no way of knowing what our undeveloped minerals are." And we found a young software company that was able to figure out precisely what the future value of every one of the wells in North Dakota, on public land, would be worth. It's been used for estate planning. If grandma dies, and she's only got 10% of one well, they can figure out the value for that. If we can do that there, we can figure it out for the whole country. And just as I said to Speaker Johnson, we're required as a nation, to conduct a census within every 10 years, not every 10 years, but within 10 years, do a census. That's hard work, but we figure out a way to do it.

(02:40:00)
I would think if Congress stood up and said, "Hey, every agency, every bureau, every department of the United States government needs to figure out what their asset value is," then we get after it, and we get after it, and we come up with a number, and then we can make these tradeoffs. When you do by executive order and take hundreds of millions of offshore subsurface out of leasing, and that's viewed as a costless event. At least we could have the tradeoff, of say "Yes. Some people thought it was important to take that off the table, but what did it mean for the American people? Did we just take trillions of dollars of future revenue out of the pockets of our future generations?" And so I think again, creating a financial understanding that is where we can have an honest discussion about some of these executive actions that are happening at the end of this term, for example, would be useful for all Americans to understand.

Sen. Lee (02:40:55):

Thank you. I appreciate that. I've got another question that I was going to ask regarding PILT. In the interest of time, I'm going to forego that. I'll just conclude it with a very brief statement. PILT, payment in lieu of taxes, the federal government came up with it, Congress came up with about 50 years ago to help offset the burden states carry, states with a lot of public land, because they don't receive any property tax revenue from it, so it's supposed to offset that. In some parts of the country, where there's a lot of public land, this works out okay. In other parts, it's pennies on the dollar compared to what they would get if they could tax the land, even at its lowest valuation and lowest rate. So I would love to talk to you about PILT reforms and making PILT generally a priority, because a lot of these communities rely on it for fire, search and rescue, schools, safety, so forth. Senator Heinrich?

Sen. Heinrich (02:41:43):

Governor, Senator Daines mentioned a very specific challenge with the Endangered Species Act. But as a governor, you know that one of the best ways to head off those conflicts is to prevent species from ever being listed, by recovering them through proactive voluntary conservation at the state level. Senator Tillis, and nine of his Republican colleagues, and I, have a highly bipartisan bill called the Recovering America's Wildlife Act, that helps states do exactly that. And in fact, North Dakota's former Game and Fish director, Terry Steinwand, was one of the architects of that legislation. It's got strong support from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, from many of the conservation groups that you mentioned in your exchange with Senator Justice. Does that sound like the kind of approach that you could work with Senator Tillis and I on?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:42:43):

Absolutely, Senator Heinrich. I think that, again, super sound principle there, which is to do the work to keep it off of any kind of federal designation, working collaboratively with the states. I had the pleasure of working with our Game and Fish Commissioner, Terry Steinwand, for six of my eight years as governor. He had almost a 40-year career in wildlife management. It's people like that, that I know and respect, across all the states. I know you've got them in New Mexico. I know we've got them in Utah. I mean, the people that work in Game and Fish at the state level that are working on these things, I haven't met somebody from the federal level that flies into North Dakota that cares more about the soil, the air, the water, the fish, the wildlife, than the people that we have at the state level. And we should just… This sounds like you're entrusting this back to the states, and that's where it belongs.

Sen. Heinrich (02:43:36):

And it was really an idea that grew out of asking all of those agencies, like, "What's the right way to approach this?" And they said, "Well, instead of just having an emergency room, which is what the Endangered Species Act effectively is, let's try to give wildlife primary care. Let's intervene when it's much cheaper, and much more effective, and you can really move the needle." You and I talked a little bit about tribal water settlements. Those are incredibly important for water certainty in the West, especially with all the conflicts we have, not just in the Colorado Basin, but also in the Rio Grande Basin, and other western basins. If you're confirmed, will you commit to continuing the department's work to both resolve legal claims around Tribal water settlements, but also just implement the existing water settlements that have already been made?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:44:33):

Well, you've got my commitment to work on those important issues.

Sen. Heinrich (02:44:36):

Great. I'm going to make one other quick statement. I know you heard from my friend and colleague from Idaho, and we've done some great work together on cleaning up abandoned mines. We don't necessarily agree on wind generation, but I would simply remind you that onshore wind is in that basket of multiple-use, and so you can always hold it to the same standard as oil and gas, but you can't legally, at least, unilaterally deny legally-permitted wind generation. So with that, thank you for all of your answers today.

Sen. Lee (02:45:15):

Senator King.

Senator Angus King (02:45:16):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I want to associate myself with your comments, Mr. Chairman, on determining the asset value of what we own. It's astounding that that doesn't exist. And one of the things that would contribute to, as we discussed previously, is adequate maintenance budgets. If you know the asset value, there are standard industry percentages that should be applied in order to determine a maintenance budget, so I believe that's an important important step. I presume you believe climate change is a problem, is that correct?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:45:50):

Yeah, I believe that climate change is a global phenomenon, for sure.

Senator Angus King (02:45:54):

And I noted the biographical material, that in 2021, as governor, you set a goal for North Dakota, of carbon neutrality by 2030, to be achieved in a variety of ways. And as you mentioned, you've really worked hard on the carbon neutrality of fossil fuel extraction and fossil fuel use. I'm a little worried today though, you keep distinguishing between intermittent and baseload. Would you agree that renewable resources, solar and wind for example, can be developed if they are adequately… If they can be integrated into the grid in a safe and reliable way?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:46:38):

Yes, they can. And it's not for me, personally, for any political reasons, that I distinguish, it's just because of physics, the physics of the grid. If we don't have enough baseload, and it's the baseload that we have that's allowed our nation to make the investments into the intermittent-

Senator Angus King (02:46:56):

I don't want the word… In a former life, I developed both baseload and intermittent resources. I don't want the word baseload to be code for no renewables. That's not what you're saying, is it?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:47:07):

No, we need a balance. But they cannot, the intermittent, if you want to call them renewables, is used as a positive word, but this is a fact of life, is they're intermittent. And when they're intermittent, until we have storage solutions, and we're years away from having significant enough cost-effective storage to support that, we need to have the baseload, or the intermittent doesn't even have a life.

Senator Angus King (02:47:29):

But it can be integrated. In your case, in North Dakota, 35% of your electricity comes from wind power. I presume your grid works.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:47:41):

Well, it's super stressed, as it is around the country. We're in parts of two grids, we're part of MISO, going east, and we're part of SBP, going west. And you can have days when the rated capacity is 30, but you got a day when the wind's blowing. The wind's blowing so hard, it drives all the baseload off of production, and then the next day, it's 20 below and there's no wind blowing, and we got no wind, and then you got to crank up the base load again. And so there's-

Senator Angus King (02:48:06):

That's one of the most important reasons that we've talked about innovation, we need to work on storage. You would agree, I think, that renewables, or intermittents, whatever you want to call them, plus storage equals baseload?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:48:22):

Yes. But right now, at a much higher cost. And so then of course, we want to not only have it be reliable, we also want to have it be affordable, and so that's part of what we have to look at as a nation, is what cost are we willing to take on to try to achieve those goals. And I believe if it's all of the above, if we can decarbonize traditional fuels cheaper than we can subsidize some of the renewables, then that should be looked at fairly and equitably and economically, because that's a better path forward for every citizen, if we can do it more affordably.

Senator Angus King (02:48:59):

I wouldn't disagree with that. But we've talked a lot about innovation, and I'm a great believer in American innovation. And the cost, for example, of solar panels has gone from, I don't know, $70 a kilowatt, down to $0.70. I mean, battery storage, for example, in Maine, there is a project underway for an 85 megawatt, 100-hour grid-scale storage at a reasonable cost, because it's not based on lithium ion, it's based on iron. And so we are moving into a period where innovation, I believe, will bring storage down. And of course, as you know, wind and solar are the cheapest forms of energy today, on a levelized basis, understanding that storage and backup is part of that calculation. But I hope that you'll work with the Department of Energy. Mr. Wright was here yesterday, and one of his business interests was in geothermal and batteries. So when I hear baseload used sometimes in these contexts, it sounds like no more renewables. I don't think that's a sustainable path for this country, and it's certainly not a way of meeting the challenge of climate change, which you've acknowledged is a serious one.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:50:15):

No, we need all forms of electricity, and we need more of it in the very near-term. And so this is not about one versus the other, this is about how do we drive forward and increase the amount of electricity we have in the country. So I'm both, all of the above, in terms of our approach on how we do it, but we got to do it in a way that we have affordability and reliability. On the storage side, there is a future, but having been in tech for 30 years, batteries get better at about 2% a year, and that's what it's been for 30 or 40 years, and there's no breakthrough coming. Yes, it's improving, but it's not like the microchip, which doubles in power.

Senator Angus King (02:50:56):

It may not be Moore's Law, but I think the amount of resources that are going into this research, at the Department of Energy and in other places, and the development of this iron-based grid-scale storage, there are opportunities for significant baseloads. I like your answer, where you said "We need it all," and I appreciate having that on the record.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:51:19):

Yeah.

Senator Angus King (02:51:19):

Thank you very much, governor, appreciate you meeting with us.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:51:21):

Thank you, Senator.

Sen. Lee (02:51:22):

Senator Hickenlooper.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:51:25):

I ran down the hall to get here, I didn't want to miss my chance for a second question, second round of questions. And again, thank you for your service as a governor, all the way through your career. You've shown a real inclination, both through your government service, but through your philanthropy, to engage in the community and to go to the community. I think the letters from the tribes, and what I've heard from our tribes in Colorado, that you are held in very, very high esteem, I think, across this country, and I think that's going to be a powerful thing. I have one curious question. I think they're still doing it with the Western Governors Associated, do they still meet with the Secretary of the Interior in December, or did they stop doing that?

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:52:13):

There's been a tradition to meet with the Secretary of Interior when they have their annual meeting in Washington D.C., which is usually in late January, early February. And I would look forward to having the opportunity for that invitation, if you know anybody there that could send me one.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:52:30):

Well, I knew that other governors are watching our discussion, so-

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:52:35):

I think your own Governor Polis may be the current chair, so maybe-

Speaker 2 (02:52:39):

This governor thing's getting kind of thick, isn't it?

Senator Hickenlooper (02:52:43):

Well, it's distilled down, pretty much just us left. I want to talk a little bit about the Colorado River, and it's at least it's a 25-year drought, but a longer-term drought. And we're able to go back, this is the geologist in me, but there's sediments throughout the Grand Canyon that can be correlated, and this appears to be the worst drought in 10,000 years. I mean, this is a serious drought, and you've got 40 million people that depend on this. And we've been working aggressively with the lower basin states and the upper basin states, and one of the things I was, even before you began running for the highest office, the work that you did around water in North Dakota, where roughly, the largest investments in water infrastructure ever, but half of it was for making sure you've got clean water, and half of it was to make sure you are protecting against flood, I thought was a great model for what the Department of Interior would have.

(02:53:45)
And I think you have to kind of look at the Colorado River in that sense too. I think that the Bureau of Reclamation plays a significant role there, but I think a strong leader, being able to find and incentivize those innovations of how do we make sure we're saving water and doing more with the water that we have, rather than fighting over it. And there's a long tradition in the West, of, you know, "Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting," as we said last week. Anyway, just speak a little bit about that, how you look at working with the Colorado River, but there are a whole number of river basins that are in drought right now.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:54:30):

Yes. And we've got a tremendous water resource in this country. When we think about the Great Lakes, you think about the Columbia, you think about the Yukon, the Mississippi sometimes is flooding when the Colorado's in drought. We just maybe don't have it all in the right places at the right time, and where we've got population centers. So I think again, with smart planning, innovation, collaboration, when we've been successful in North Dakota with private-public partnerships, it's included solutions, again with great help from Senator Hoeven playing a huge role in the federal.

(02:55:05)
I mean, one of the projects we have there is a couple billion dollars. It's a third federal, it's a third local with a local sales tax, a huge buy-in locally, and then the state stepping up and participating. And when we did that together, this project's going to get done in six and a half or seven years, as opposed to 20 or 25, or never, with [inaudible 02:55:26]. Because we have that experience in North Dakota too. We got water projects at the federal level that were started in the 1960s, that still haven't fulfilled their full mission.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:55:37):

Right.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:55:37):

So anyway, I think there's an opportunity to work together to come up with solutions.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:55:41):

And that timeliness does magnify what can get done. The Bureau of Reclamation has done a lot of work in Colorado, I think, across the West, and I think I'm universal, that I haven't heard a single senator, Republican or Democrat, complain about how they've approached this. They have a bunch of projects that are midway, and I'm hopeful that I know there's going to be… There's a lot of talk about a tax cut, and a lot of talk about how they're going to pay for that tax cut, hopefully we can protect those funds that have been committed to various water projects. Because the worst thing you can have, and this has happened to Colorado two or three times over the past several decades, where you get halfway out, you're building something, and then all of a sudden the support goes away.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:56:25):

Yeah, agree. I mean, having a secure and predictable forms of capital for these projects. When you have the instability, the uncertainty, than the people that are bidding on the projects bid higher, they have to take out more risk on their side. Their insurance companies that are supporting them on the private side, say, "Go, don't do this." When we were able to go to the private-public partnership, and we could create certainty that they would have the permits, that lowered the cost dramatically, and not only the time to get it done, but it also lowered the cost.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:56:58):

That's music to my ears. And we agree completely, so we'll remember this conversation three years from now, and I'm sure, who knows what the future will bring. But I appreciate that commitment to the long-term solutions, I think, that is necessary on almost every level in this country.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:57:14):

Great. Thank you, Senator.

Senator Hickenlooper (02:57:14):

Thank you.

Sen. Lee (02:57:15):

Senator Hoeven.

Sen. Hoeven (02:57:16):

Thank you, Mr. Chair. One quick item for the record, as you know, I've passed legislation to keep horses in the Theodore Roosevelt National Park. I'm a horse fan, you and your wife are horse fans. I just want to know that you'll commit to the record, to continue to work on that very important issue with me.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:57:32):

Absolutely. And for the record, people should know that as popular as Senator Hoeven is in our state, the horses in the National Park have even more followers on social media than he does.

Sen. Hoeven (02:57:45):

Yeah, no question. And then just one final item, and I think you've demonstrated to both sides of the aisle, your absolute willingness to work with everybody to achieve good outcomes, and a good outcome for this country, and that's exactly what we want in somebody that goes into these important positions. And so thank you. Thank you to Catherine. And then just if there's anything for the record, that you want to add to the record, I would just give you this opportunity before turning things back to the Chairman. And again, I want to thank both the Chairman and the ranking member as well.

Gov. Doug Burgum (02:58:19):

Well, the only thing I would do quickly, is close with gratitude to Chairman Lee and Ranking Member Heinrich. Thank you for your time, ahead of time. Thank you for making your members available to me, for meetings ahead of time, and thanks for this great dialogue and discussion today. I've received a lot of invitations from members to come and visit. I would be remiss if I didn't, before I leave, to extend an invitation on behalf of Senator Hoeven, Senator Kramer, and myself, to come to the grand opening of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum, which is opportunity to tell the story of conservation that really began during the time when Theodore Roosevelt spent time in North Dakota.

(02:59:16)
His wife and his mother tragically died on the same day, in the same house, in Valentine's Day of 1884. And he had a newborn infant daughter that was two days old, he handed that off to his sister, and he got on the train, and he was a deeply despondent, and went west, and remade himself from the… He'd had a childhood that was full of sickness, and he went from a sickly Easterner, and became a rough and tumble Westerner, a cowboy, learned the hard way out there, with a lot of time in the saddle, and built the Elkhorn Ranch. And from then, he developed his thoughts about conservation in this country. And we know the story that went from there, that led him to become the rough rider that he was, that propelled him into becoming a governor. Formed the National Governors Association, saved football.

(03:00:09)
I mean, now, the largest viewed sport. And the NCAA was formed because Theodore Roosevelt was listening to concerns from mothers, whose too many of their sons were dying of head injuries playing football in the Ivy League schools without protections, and so he said, "Let's come up with some standard safety protections." So there's many stories about TR that haven't been told, like that, but the only president to receive a Medal of Honor for his time in the military. One of his sons also received a Medal of Honor, who was there at Normandy in World War Two, but incredible story. And of course, Nobel Peace Prize that he received for negotiating the settlement between Russia and Japan. And he wrote more books than all the other presidents combined. He wrote more letters than Jefferson and Washington. We're in the process of digitizing all of that, so it'll be the first digital presidential library. It'll be one of the most sustainable buildings built in North America, and it's in the heart of the Badlands, that he loved, at a gateway community that goes into the Theodore Roosevelt National Park.

(03:01:17)
In closing, I would say someone asked this 4th of July, "Are you going to have fireworks?" Per tradition, when you open a presidential library, all living presidents are invited. So if they all show up, we may not need to have additional fireworks, but it'll be great because there's a lot of what we know about Theodore Roosevelt that still lives on today. And think about the discussions we're having, the Panama Canal wouldn't have happened without him, and how important that was for our country during World War II, and how important it is for our future going forward. So in water, of course, in Arizona, some of the original water systems in Arizona were dedicated and created by Theodore Roosevelt.

(03:02:01)
One of the first wildlife refuges that he made in the country, was in North Dakota, at Stump Lake. He sent us on a way to build out the National Park system as we know it right now, so it's with a bit of serendipity and a great amount of excitement, that as Secretary of Interior, I'll look forward to being at that opening along with all of you. This committee's all officially invited as of right now. It would be great to have you all there. And with that, again, thank you Senators, and especially, thank you, Senator Hoeven and Kramer for your folks. Great. Your support, your friendship, and your mentorship for all these years.

Sen. Lee (03:02:39):

Thank you, Governor. It's been a great hearing, and I appreciate the participation of all the members of the staff, members of the committee, and especially our capitol police force for keeping us safe today. I'm sure that given all the time he spent in North Dakota, Theodore Roosevelt learned correctly to pronounce the name of the animal that is called the bison.

Gov. Doug Burgum (03:02:59):

It is. It does have a Z, I agree with-

Sen. Lee (03:03:03):

It's got a Z.

Gov. Doug Burgum (03:03:03):

Spell it B-I-Z-

Sen. Lee (03:03:05):

It's a Z that… Well, it's not a silent Z, it's just an invisible one. With all that-

Senator Angus King (03:03:10):

Mr. Chairman, do you know what the lady buffalo said to her little boy as he was going off to school?

Sen. Lee (03:03:15):

Oh, no, I don't. What did he say?

Senator Angus King (03:03:17):

Bye, son.

Sen. Lee (03:03:19):

That's it.

Senator Angus King (03:03:20):

I would also mention that Teddy Roosevelt coined-

Gov. Doug Burgum (03:03:23):

I love it. I just love it.

Sen. Lee (03:03:25):

Going to open up a whole new debate.

Senator Angus King (03:03:26):

He coined the term "Malefactors of great wealth," I'll just leave it at that.

Sen. Lee (03:03:30):

Hoeven's going to be telling that one for weeks. The record will stand open until 6:00 P.M. today for questions for the record. We stand adjourned.